Lets start at the top: 2009 is about the coaching
by JonnyNYC on Dec 6, 2009 5:12 PM EST
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PrintI love BB. I think he's a great mind. I think he has far too much on his chest, in his hands these days.
I posted a few weeks ago about how I felt the Pats needed stronger coordinators, that Pees and O;Brien are just fillers for spots where BB larger calls his own designs - without anyone he respects to challenge or offer alternatives.
As good as Pees, O'Brien or even McDaniels may be - they are not of the same ilk as Wiess and Romeo who were coaches who made the play by play calls with BB overseeing the overall strategy of the game.
Right now, in this season the Pats are having a hard time seeing the forest through the trees. BB is trying to be a mile wide and a mile deep, and even he cann't support that well. Just ask Cleveland.
The offensively play calling is horrid. Randy Moss has 4 inches on his cover today, they through one pass to Moss underneath. Where was the 15 yrd slant, the double out for him with Welker in the middle? Where was the play action to a TE after such strong running. And of course..WHERE DID THE RUN GAME GO? The offense averaged 5+ per carry in the first half, in the second half they used the run as a last resort, again.
The offense is falling into the Dan Marino trap - IE "look, we've got a great QB, he can beat anyone." This is what the curse of 2007 is. 1st half today, mixing up plays, run, run pass. Pass run Pass, Pass, run, run. Diversity leads to confusion which leads to progress.
2nd half pass, run pass, Pass, pass run. I could be wrong but I don't think there was more then one occassion in the 2nd half, when the past had the lead, where they ran the ball on consecutive plays.
Especially when you defense has shown no signs of shutting down the opponent, you need to establish the run to keep the O on the field.
The final stretch shouldn't be an issue, but once they are in the playoffs this team needs to take the game of Tom's shoulder by about 25%. Let him be the smart QB, he doesn't have to be, and the team doesn't need the all everything QB.
Just as Peyton - it doesn't get you that far
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I'm still not sold on Weiss returning
Mainly because the current roster doesn’t look very Weiss-ish – short on power running backs, short on TEs, and heavy on big-play WRs. I suppose Weiss would find ways to use Edelman, Welker and Stanback, but I don’t know if Weiss would know what to do with Moss (although play-action bombs might be amusing to see).
You know who else would be interesting to mention? Mike Shanahan. He’s out of work. He visited the Pats this year. He’s friendly with Belichick. He’s looking for a way to resurrect his reputation and earn another HC gig.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
i would be very surprised if shanahan took that position
i don’t think he’s quite at a spot where he needs to ‘earn’ another hc job. im betting there are still GMs out there who will give him a shot if theyre looking for a coach.
True, it's partly wishful thinking
but there are also a few great unemployed HC candidates floating around at the moment, including Superbowl winners like Cowher. That many guys can’t fit into the few available slots.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
cowher...
He is going to get 10 mil a year to coach wherever he wants. he recently bought a house and moved his family to North Carolina…. I don’t think that was a random thing. I think he is eying the Panthers position. If not, I am sure Jerry Jones, or Dan Snyder would be happy to pay him to come coach for them.
Cowher played college ball in NC
Don’t read too much into it. He bought the house a long time ago, before he was out of coaching.
Sure, but...
Can you really see him being a coordinator vice a HC? Plus I think the panthers will be looking for a new HC at the end of the season
No, I just meant he isn't necessarily positioning himself for the Panther's job by moving to NC
He’s lived there for several years now
Plus...
I have a feeling that he’s not allowed to take a HC job, under his arrangement with the Broncos. He’d be cutting himself off from some pretty hefty cash if he did take one of those HC jobs, at least from what I remember of what I read about it a year ago.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
I disagree...
Weiss had some good backs in his stable that COULD power run. I think he is talented enough and diverse enough to figure out a game plan that uses the talents of the people he has.
Although.. what exactly is wrong with the power running attack? We got Taylor and LoMo (who is doing a good job lately) for the power attack, and Morris is a HELL of a fullback either carrying or blocking. If you combine the basic “I” with Moss and Welker as the WR, and put Watson in there to help chip block and break free for a check down option, that attack alone provides NUMEROUS match-up problems for their opponents.
I just meant that Laurence Maroney isn't Corey Dillon
Dillon was the prototypical powerback – big frame, hefty build, slower than expected, but particularly strong in the legs and core. Maroney’s a one-cut-and-go type – smaller than Dillon, but definitely faster and more agile, and deadly in open spaces.
I’m not saying one is better than the other – I’m just pointing out that there has been a clear move by Hoodie away from a power-run game. You can see it in the way the roster was arranged pre-season.
In particular:
a) Belichick had four good TEs in camp and only kept two of them; and
b) Belichick had two run-blocking veteran FBs before the season (Heath Evans and Patrick Pass), and kept zero.
It’s also worth noting that the choice to go without a FB wasn’t a money issue – Evans offered to play for the minimum veteran wage to stay in NE (in other words, he offered a NE discount) and Hoodie cut him anyway. He also used draft picks to trade for one of the extra TEs, Alex Smith, and cut him anyway.
Going into a season with only two TEs (neither of which is a full-time blocking TE) and no full-time FBs suggests Hoodie has definitely put a power-run game on the back-burner. It also means that the roster and arrangement of roster-slots-per-position are geared towards a pass-first game, which you’d have to re-jig for a power-run game. It’s possible, but considering it’s only been two years since the 2007 team annihilated everyone with a pass-first, balanced run package, I’d imagine more of the status quo on the ground, albeit (hopefully) with a better/healthier O-line.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Great post Johny. Thats exactly what I argued earlier
This is a talented Patriots team. More talented than the 2008 Patriots but where the 2008 had their limited talent maximized by the coaches, the 2009 Patriots are being handicapped by the coaching staff.
I feel that injuries have hampered our progress as well...
…we haven’t been able to utilize our offensive tools due to our O-Line injuries and we haven’t been able to do anything on defense due to our D-Line injuries.
thanks all - i thinks a smaller name coach
Maybe like a Steve kragthorpe, or similar college couch who was an offensive wizard, but needs to regain stature before getting another hc job.
Weiss et all have too much pride, let alone price demands to be oc’s again.
by JonnyNYC on Dec 6, 2009 9:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I never said that?
If a game comes down to one play, you don’t deserve to win it. That’s what 3/5 Pats losses have been and that’s why we’re no longer an elite team.
It’s the other 59 minutes of the game where those injuries take place. I was talking about overall progress. Our team would be much better if we weren’t down to only 1 healthy starter on our O-Line and would be much better if Vince wasn’t our only healthy D-Line starter. It’s the rest of the game where that takes place.
We’re talking about how the coaches call plays. Those are plays that should be called if we have a healthy roster- we don’t. Those were bad play calls. If we had a healthy roster, maybe the 4th and 1 would have been a good call. Who knows. No one. But the injuries prevent a team from gelling and they prevent the coaches from fully utilizing the players. The Patriots, in week 14, are still searching for an identity. That means we’re going no where this year.
Yeah, we have the potential...
…but we aren’t reaching it. It will come in the future, but for now we just can’t be considered elite.
by Richard Hill on Dec 7, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
The reason we aren't an elite team this year
is the guys don’t step up and play like it. The defense doesn’t draw the line and hold their ground. How many three and outs have we gotten? How many fourth down attempts have we stopped. That used to be a point of pride, now the defense has no pride.
On offense, in those "gotta make the play" instances how many guys can we go to. That’s where we lack a #3 and #4 receiver, that’s where the running game stops, and that’s why the team falls apart when Welker’s not productive. Welker and Faulk are the only two "heart" players we got. Stop them and the offense falls apart.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Dec 7, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Bullcrap....
The Patriots identity is very well known. Pass, Pass, Pass, Welker, Faulk, Welker, Moss, Maroney, Welker, Welker, Aiken, Welker, Moss (15 yard slant/go route)
The Patriots don’t have balance and despite injuries this team hasn’t tried to change that “identity” you all claim you don’t have.
This teams begins and now ends with the success or lack thereof of the Patriots offense. I will agree you all have no pass rush and nearly a porous a secondary as there is in the league.
I don’t follow the Patriots the way I follow my team, but I see a clear identity with the Patriots and I doubt seriously the formula you all have right now would change if you all were “healthy”….
No kidding...
…which is why we need to change our identity and NOT be that pass pass pass team that everyone can stop. Wonder where our balance went? Half of our running backs were injured for half the year. You can’t run the ball behind an injured line with running backs that don’t exist. LoMo is fine in a group, but he still can’t handle the full load. Our hope for balance was shot when they got injured. See my point? Injuries have forced us back into the pass only offense where, behind our porous O-Line, we can’t succeed. We wanted to do certain schemes, but we haven’t been able to due to injuries and now we’ve been forced back to the pass. Our injuries have PREVENTED us from changing our identity. We’ll just have to finish the season with what we can.
by Richard Hill on Dec 7, 2009 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
Still...
The offense you guys have now is the same style offense you had in 2007, when you were blowing team up. This is the same philosophy that I’m pretty sure would have been in place in 2008 had Brady been healthy.
You guys were crying about “balance” and “identity” when Brady was throwing the ball on 4th and 6 while up by 25 points.
The Patriots “identity” was known when you guys traded for the monstrosity that is Randy Moss and the bullet that is Wes Welker.
The problem with your offense isn’t about injuries, well maybe to a certain extent, but the Patriots identity is passing, plain and simple.
There are teams in the NFL with real identity crisis. There are teams that have no directions and the New England Patriots are not one of them
The problem with the Patriots is you have no pass rush and teams pass at will on you guys. While you’re not giving up league high numbers, I’m willing to bet those numbers are tremendously above average in the 4th quarter.
The Patriots are literally a team that cannot fall behind by multiple points, because you’re defense can’t stop anyone from scoring.
But the offensive identity will remain the same!
Yes, they did.
The defence was battered and had absolutely no pass-rush at that point of the game because the two best pass-rushers were injured, so Belichick knew that the only way to win was to keep Manning off the field.
In more simple words. Defence. Injured. Offence. Try. 4th and 1.
Thanks for playing.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Amen Brother...
Even as a Colts fan I can certainly understand how having the mindset that your QB can make any play any time can certainly hurt…
it is stupid to rely on Tom Brady everytime
We don’t need to do that. We actually have a good running game, but it is underutilized because of the “better” pass offense
The offensively play calling is horrid. Randy Moss has 4 inches on his cover today, they through one pass to Moss underneath.
Because he was doubled for most of the game, and what does it say about Vontae that he has out jumped Moss twice this year?
Current Phinsider Feud Points: 23
T.Lex doesn't want to be fed, he wants to hunt. Can't just suppress sixty five million years of gut instinct.
Randy is great on the 15 yr out routes as well
With his height he also has great length, you put him in the slot and have him run the 15 out with the split end slanting or hitting a corner/post.
No back under 6’2 can cover moss on the inside slant, then also stay with him on the out. Brady can through the ball 2 ft ahead of moss and the coverage and only Moss’s arms can get to it.
You pats fans are so spoiled....
“but once they are in the playoffs this team needs to take the game of Tom’s shoulder by about 25%”
Really? Once they are in the playoffs huh
I bet you all were saying the same thing last year just before you sat at home for the postseason….
The Fins are still the AFC East Champs and are on the way up while you guys are on the way down….
Lets not get carried away
Are you saying we’re spoiled because we expect a 7-5 team with a 1 game lead in their division to make the playoffs? When they have the easiest remaining schedule in their division
The phins are a good team, but Ronnie brown is out, Pennigton is out, you got waxed by Buffalo last weekend, and could have lost again yesterday.
Miami’s final four games are against 4 teams also in playoff contention and they are a game out from the division lead and game out from a WC spot.
Perhaps they are on the rise, but the elevator is about stop a mediocrity
I'm saying youre spoiled cause you automatically expect the Pats to go to the playoffs...
Plus, when you guys lose the fans act like spoiled brats and leave the stadium early and badmouth your team…Even Ellis Hobbs said the same thing last year
Way to completely ignore the response to your comment
How many times do we need to say we don’t automatically expect the Patriots to go to the playoffs? Is it that hard to believe that we’re not all ignorant homers? Look at the facts. We have an easier schedule than the Dolphins. We have a 1 game lead on the Dolphins. Ask a football analyst who’s going to the playoffs, and 99 out of 100 will pick the Patriots over the Dolphins.
Stop criticizing what you don’t know. Every team has fans that badmouth it, but if you go on this forum (whose members I believe are pretty representative of the general fanbase) after a loss, and you see very few people badmouthing the team—those that do are ignored. We have discussions, like, um, this one. If you think debating how the coaching staff has done is badmouthing the team, then you have a lot to learn about what it means to be an educated fan.
by LegendaryTadpole on Dec 7, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Sheesh
The day I take Ellis Hobbs’ word on anything will be the last day I watch football.
You sold out the stadium yesterday but a good 1/5 of the seats were empty. What’s that say?
As Mr. Sloan always says, there is no "I" in team, but there is an "I" in pie. And there's an "I" in meat pie. Anagram of meat is team... I don't know what he's talking about. --Shaun of the Dead
by JohnHannahRules on Dec 7, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Sometimes the ball just bounces wrong...
…but sometimes arrogance is an issue. I’m a PhinPhanPhorLife, but I could see the Pats were the better team yesterday (just like the Phins were the better team in Buffalo last week).
I’m alluding to not going for the field goal on 4th and 1; not necessarily the killer (after all the Dolphins still had plenty of time to go for the TD at the end of the game), but I think it reveals a certain mindset that others have referred to as the “Marino Trap,” i.e. that our QB will always win the game for us.
Maybe this will be a learning experience for BB, that he doesn’t have quite the same team he’s had in the past and will have to play less recklessly.
That FG was a big mistake
Always take points when you can get them, especially when they can put you up by two scores before half time.
The team is mostly better then the ones he’s had in the past, and that might be part of the problem the lingering effect that it can be just like 2007 again.
Unfortunately for BB and the Pats, other teams study game film as well, and those days are gone and those plays are covered.
Got to be smarter then your opponent, not just more sklled
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