Around the AFC East: Running Back Rankings
by MaPatsFan on Jun 26, 2009 8:00 AM EDT
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PrintHello, Patriots fans. This week, us AFC East bloggers thought we'd try something a little different. Instead of asking my rival writers questions and posting the answers for y'all to cut up, we thought it'd be cool to rank teams by position in the AFC East, starting with running backs. Put your thinking caps on and branch out past the center of the universe, Foxboro, MA let's give 'em something to talk about!
1. New England Patriots - Yeah, I'm being a homer, but so what? I am absolutely stoked about what the Patriots backfield is capable of accomplishing this year. Laurence Maroney, our most likely starter, has a MAJOR chip on his shoulder after being IR'd after game 5 in 2008. Even worse, he was labeled "fragile" and had to keep his mouth shut about his injury. I'm looking for a 1,000 yard season from Maroney and for him to finally shutup all the haters. Joseph Addai who? While we're on the subject of being labeled fragile, ex Jaguar, Fred Taylor, is one of my favorite off season moves. Taylor still has plenty of gas in the tank and will be a great mentor for Maroney, having gone through much of the same early in his career. Not to mention lighting a fire under Laurence. Sammy Morris will be his usual reliable self as a complement to Maroney while Kevin Faulk is, well, Kevin Faulk. Mr. Third Down with incredible hands will be that chain mover, that option threat Tom Brady can dump to when needed. Let's give BenJarvus Green-Ellis a shout out as well. Bumped up from the practice squad in 2008, he showed us the goods. Boom Baby!! So yes, my homerism intact, I'm saying NE will have the #1 rushing attack in the AFC East!
2. New York Jets - You may not have noticed, but the Jets quietly took the lead in rushing for the AFC East. Not only do they lead in total yardage with 2,004, but the Jets own rushing touchdowns with 20. Well, except for our Patriots who best them in both categories with 2,278 yards and 21 touchdowns. Didn't know that, did ya? Returning running backs Thomas Jones and Leon Washington will, once again, tear up the field. Jones had a whopping 1,312 yards and 13 touchdowns! He's a monsterous runner who will establish a strong running attack for New York.
3. Miami Dolphins - It's hard to argue with the tandem of Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams. With 14 touchdowns and almost 1,600 yards between the two of them in 2008, they're a one-two threat that's got the goods. Of course, all that Wildcat stuff doesn't hurt, either! Ronnie Brown is a double threat when on the field, taking snaps or running the ball. We Patriots fans know what happened in Game 3 and I definitely know because I was at Foxboro for that embarrassment. It remains to be seen if the Wildcat still has any teeth (turning from Wildcat to Wimpykitty, it was largely "de-clawed" towards the end of the season), but it's still a play NFL teams have to reckon with.
4. Buffalo Bills - The Marshawn Lynch/Fred Jackson tandem had similar yardage stats as Miami, but they're dead last for one simple reason: 11 touchdowns to Miami's 14. All the yardage in the world will do you no good if it don't put points on the board. I'm also of the opinion this will turn into a pass happy offense with Terrell Owens on board. How can it not? I mean, if you had "The Real 81" on your team, wouldn't you want to get the ball to him as often as humanly possible?
That's it folks. Whaddya think? Am I all wet? Should I be seeking therapy? Or did I get it right? Be sure to check out Gang Green Nation, The Phinsider, and Buffalo Rumblings for my fellow AFC East writer's take on the rankings. I'm sure there'll be just as much homerism as you see here.
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Now I’m confused….
Are you ranking them based on their 2008 performance or how good they will be in 2009? You keep going back and forth.
And you can say he has a chip on his shoulder, but I think it’s a bone spur. There is no way Broken Boney Maroney puts the Pats ahead of anybody on this list when he can’t stay on the field. Talk to me when he can start for more than a third of the season and he might, might get to a thousand yards.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
I concur
Maroney is a isnt that good when he IS healthy. I am very amused that Joseph Addai is the gold standard when you think of Maroney. Miami’s exploitation of the wildcat formation will be nowhere’s near as successful in 09 as it was in 08.
Preposterous to think the Pats have the best RB combo in the AFC East!!!!!!!
might get to a thousand yards
I don’t even see that as an accomplishment anymore – any starting RB in this league should top 1000 yards save for possibly the bottom 2 or 3 teams.
Yeah – a TON of homerism going on here – no reason to even have a discussion about it
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I love the end of article.....
“Im sure there will be as much homerism as you see here.” Wrong again.
How else would you rank their 2009 performance?
The only thing we have to go on is past performance, right? Also, how can you say I’m bouncing back and forth when you’re doing the same for Maroney?
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
You ranked the Bills based on their past performance, but you based the Pats on what you predict they will do. That is going back and forth. if you were to rank Maroney based on past performance, there is no way you can rank the Pats back field that high. I think you could make the case for your ranking better then how you did.
No night spent pantsless is a wasted night.
Maroney's past performance when healthy
Look at the second half of 2007. If he plays like that, we’re golden.
Keep the faith!
What happened the first half of 2007 or all of 2008. You would being looking through rose colored glasses and pick out the best 1/4 of the last 2 years. I think Maroney is a good back and I agree that if healthy he could be a great runner, but that is an awfully big if to rank the Pats first here.
No night spent pantsless is a wasted night.
but that is an awfully big if to rank the Pats first here.
hthat would be like us ranking Edwards above Brady because of a few good games he had last year in the early part of the season. hahahahaha riiiiggghhhhhtttttt
no objectivity here
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
No objectivity, how so?
NE had more rushing yardage and more TD’s than any other AFC East team in 2008. And that was without their starter for 12 or so games (Maroney) and a promoted practice squad rookie (BenJarvus Green-Ellis). Maroney’s supposedly healthy and we’ve added Fred Taylor. I’d suggest that means NE has IMPROVED. What makes you think they wouldn’t, at the very least, match their performance?
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
I think that that needed to be the crux of your argument. You mention it a little but those numbers are very hard to argue against.
That said, with Brady back and if he stays healthy, the Pats will be throwing the ball a lot more and the rushing numbers will go down.
No night spent pantsless is a wasted night.
Fair enough
I hope we’re a bit more balanced than 2007, but it’d be hard to argue with the success of that pass happy strategy. However, my issue is NE started to have trouble in the second half of that year, most likely due to teams simply getting better and having more film.
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
Fred Taylor as backup is greatly diminished
Taylor may still be a great, but he has always only been great when he gets a ton of carries throughout an entire game. When he serves as a change of pace, he never establishes himself. Unless every Pat fan thinks the Patriots are going to pound away with Taylor, I don’t see how it’s an upgrade. Merely insurance.
half a season........
sounds like the last half of 2004 with McGahee. see where that got us?
He has been in the league for three years...
If I used 1/6th of Marshawn’s totals he is a Hall of Famer. I could pick and choose some awesome games. :-)
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jun 26, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Or those famous games where McGahee played against Vilma. That should get him into the hall no questions asked, right? =)
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Show me the TD production that a lack-there-of for the Bills placed them at the bottom on this ranking?
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
nfl.com for rushing TD's
Check here for the stats.
Patriots – 21
Jets – 20
Dolphins – 18
Bills – 16
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
How am I bouncing around?
I said I would change my opinion if and when he hit a thousand yards and stayed on the field.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jun 26, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions
There is no way Broken Boney Maroney puts the Pats ahead of anybody on this list when he can’t stay on the field.
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
Yeah...
that’s past performance. Not future performance. Like I said… when he does stay on the field we can talk about it. He has never been able to do that in the NFL. If I recall correctly he didn’t stay healthy at Minnesota either.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jun 26, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Trust me, we're hoping the same
It’s frustrating to us Pats fans that we’ve seen flashes of good stuff from Laurence, but a lack of consistency due to one thing or another.
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
Personally...
I’m not hoping for it. As you might expect.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jun 26, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
The ratings are based on two different criteria....
I just read the our AFC East counterparts articles and there are some good points.
Of all of our running backs, only Fred Taylor has shown he can be a workhorse. He’s 33, and while I think there is gas in the tank, I don’t think he can still be an every down back. Every other back has yet to make it through a season shouldering the full load.
Great argument and when you look at the other teams running backs, there is some good every down talent there. Lynch especially seems to get stronger as the game goes on.
The real question to me isn’t who has the best backs. I’ll concede that there are good arguments for every other AFC team. The question in my mind is who will have the best running attack. In 2008, the Pats did and here’s why:
1) Great O-Line play. When you can block into the second level, plays open up.
2) Moss and Welker. When you have to take those threats seriously, the safeties can’t crowd the line. That opens us the run.
3) Cassel. He lead the league last year in Quarterback rushing.
In 2009, we hope for:
1) Great O-Line play.
2) Moss and Welker and Galloway. Joey is still a deep threat, but now opposite Moss.
3) Spread offense that opens up running lanes.
If you’re talking about the backs themselves, the Pats still have something to prove.
If you’re talking about the attack. Good luck stopping it.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 26, 2009 11:06 AM EDT reply actions
Lynch made it through a season shouldering the load...
He was out for one game last year.
Great points about Cassel and the attack vs. the backs. The Patriots have recently been greater than the sum of their parts. It’s an excellent, excellent point to make.
Don’t you want Tom Brady to lead the NFL in QB rush yards like Cassel??? :-)
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jun 26, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Brady as the rushing leader....
No, I’d rather he keeps giving “long hand-offs” to Welker and let him get the YAC. Though Tom always gets some yards each season, and we’ll have to hold our breath as he does his QB slide.
He’s too much of a competitor to NOT do it.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 26, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Brady moves like he's in a swimming pool ;-)
He always makes me close my eyes when he runs
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
Oh I loathe joining this board, but the temptation proved too much.
Fred Taylor was let go for a reason: i’ll let you think why that was. It’s a relief that Bills didn’t “land” him.
Maroney is a bust – until he shows otherwise, there’s no reason to think he puts your team in the best position to win. I’d feel better with Sammy Morris manning the ship back there.
If you think the Bills will be pass-happy and, as a result, the RB position will suffer…how in the world can you NOT feel that way with Brady and co. back in action?
The Jets own this trophy and i’d say the ’Phins and Bills push for 2nd. The Pats are left watching from their couches on this one.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 12:23 PM EDT reply actions
Taylor
Well, I don’t have to “think” why he was let go. Most every analyst and insider has made it clear it was a) to get younger at RB and b) to free up cap space (Taylor was due a $6 million salary and a large bonus if he stayed another day). Have you even followed the story? And he’s not in NE to be a 1,000 yard rusher; he’s here for depth and mentorship. But, to use your “Maroney Logic” (until he shows otherwise), we’ll need to wait and see with Taylor.
As far as the Pats watching from their couches, well that’s a wait and see, too. Bills at 2nd? Major league homerism there, major league.
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
The only way any of the 4 teams’ fans wouldn’t be labelled a homer would be if they didn’t even rank their team.
Did I follow the story? Yes, though it wasn’t much of a story to me, honestly. I don’t see how you can think placing the Bills 2nd is homerism. They have a proven #1 (able to play through injury) and a #2 that many teams would employ as their #1. The Dolphins have a great attack, but it doesn’t seem as “full time” as the Bills’ attack.
So then, if Taylor is only there for depth and mentorship, how can he solidify your placing the Pats attack as #1? He’s a role player, under your explanation.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember, we're talking the entire running back corp
Copying from an above quote:
NE had more rushing yardage and more TD’s than any other AFC East team in 2008. And that was without their starter for 12 or so games (Maroney) and a promoted practice squad rookie (BenJarvus Green-Ellis). Maroney’s supposedly healthy and we’ve added Fred Taylor. I’d suggest that means NE has IMPROVED. What makes you think they wouldn’t, at the very least, match their performance?
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
And a full third the entire running corps from last year is gone.
Subtract Cassel and Jordan and you’re starting with a 600 yard deficit that needs to be made up by Fred Taylor, a reconstructed Tom Brady, and a theoretically uninjurable Maroney.
2008 rushing stats:
Thomas Jones – 1312 – 13 TD
Lynch – 1036 – 8 TD
Brown – 916 – 10TD
Morris – 727 – 7 TD
Williams – 659 – 4TD
Fred Jackson – 571 – 3TD
Taylor – 556 – 1 TD
Rhodes 544 – 5 TD
Patriots – 21
Jets – 20
Dolphins – 18
Bills – 16
in this your failed to take into account Rhodes 5 TDs that is now on the Bills. Even if you add Taylors 1 TD that takes you to one more than the Bills. I’d also add that Cassell ran, guessing here 2 or 3 TD’s by himself. Which you would have to take him off so your TD totals go down to 20.
I’m sure there’s some errors in my logic because I don’t feel like being a stat hog right now.
Jones almost doubles your highest RB’s total in yardage and is dead last between the top 4 RB’s for their respective teams in TD’s and yardage.
yet your #1?
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
and is dead
and morris is dead last
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
wheres ur #2?
u base ur arguement on the fact that jones had almost 2x the td of our highest, but how many yds/td did your #2 have 448/6… your team has no depth and u rely completely on jones
He’s a Bills fan, not a Jets fan.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
lol – yup – definately not a jets fan
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus – as the Pats added Taylor, improving their running game, didn’t the Bills add Rhodes? How is he not an improvement when the team really didn’t have a 3rd back last season?
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
all i have to say to afghan is that you say ur glad the bills didnt “land” Taylor? haha im ecstatic all he is doing is bringing more experience to a great dynasty. ever heard Moss? players play differently at NE as you will see in 09, and as far as ranking the bills second in RB that is funny. you say the pats backfeidl should be last well lets take a look at the top 2 RB for each of the 2 teams, everyone seems to be forgetting a RB doesnt only run, by my rounded estimates the bills put up ~1600 rushing/11td and 600 pass/1 td compared to the pats 1200 rush/10td and 640 pass/3 td, now u have to factor in that we will have maroney and now taylor, so yes the pats have the best backfield in my opinion. and i firmly believe the bills deserve to be ranked last in this catagory, if not all catagories
It’s great that you’re so passionate and have a strong opinion, but it doesn’t mean you’re right. Time will show what team comes out on top. I’m putting my bets on the Jets’ attack.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
also not to mention your #3 rushing leader was trent edwards, ha. lets just take a look at this amazing stat edwards 36 rushes last yr 9fum/5 lost…. really? he loses the ball 1/4 of the time he rushes. and just so u dont think im being unfair cassel 73 rush 7fum/4 lost, and not to mention he was our 5th leading reciever with 150+ more yards than edwards
So how was Moss coming to NE a relavant argument for how Taylor will do there? Moss had attitude problems – came to a proven champion and had little reason to be upset. Players buy into the system, I get it. The thing is, Moss didn’t have age against him – Taylor does. Taylor has never had an issue with playing all out, or having an attitude problem.
Please – you shouldn’t continue to compare a malcontent with someone who’s just getting old, when determining how each has performed /will fare with their new team.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
*relevant
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
The fumble stats come from sacks, not rushes.
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by Brian Galliford on Jun 26, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
if i can recall right bruschi is what 36 and he finished 4th on the team in tackles, and he doesnt play passing downs. yes moss had attitude and came to a proven winning team, which they still are. taylor will be going to the same team… and he will not be playing every down he is most likely there to mentor the younger players and play in clutch situations. you say the bills have a proven #1 because they can play through injury??? what losing ur #1 and STILL finishing 6th in the NFL in rush yards per game, yet ur team “played through injury” finishing 14 in rushing with 27rush yards/game less than the pats, and u are proven #1, ok
Bruschi? Why is he in this discussion?
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's make this easier.
These are the 2008 rushing stats along with their NFL rank.
Yards
2,278 – Rank: 6th (Patriots)
2,004 – Rank: 9th (Jets)
1,897 – Rank: 12th (Dolphins)
1,842 – Rank: 14th (Bills)
Yards/Game
142.4 – Rank: 6th (Patriots)
125.2 – Rank: 9th (Jets)
118.6 – Rank: 12th (Dolphins)
115.1 – Rank: 14th (Bills)
Yards/Carry
4.75 – Rank: 5th (Jets)
4.44 – Rank: 7th (Patriots)
4.23 – Rank: 15th (Dolphins)
4.20 – Rank: 16th (Bills)
Rushing Touchdowns
21 – Rank: 4th (Patriots)
20 – Rank: 5th (Jets)
18 – Rank: 9th (Dolphins)
16 – Rank: 11th (Bills)
Rushing 1st Downs
145 – Rank: 1st (Patriots)
111 – Rank: 7th (Dolphins)
107 – Rank: 10th (Bills)
94 – Rank: 21st (Jets)
The Patriots are consistently at the top of the AFC East, except for yrds/carry. The Patriots did this without Laurence Maroney, and with Sammy Morris and Lamont Jordan missing something like six and eight games, respectively. There was a point during the season where we were relying on practice squadder BenJarvus Green-Ellis. We have since replaced Lamont Jordan with Fred Taylor, and we all know what Kevin Faulk brings to the table.
The Patriots should be better this year, so I don’t see what all this outrage is at putting the Pats at the top. A valid argument can be made for all sides, but the Patriots at the top is not far-fetched at all, if last year is any indication.
Correction
Make that three games missed for Morris. His injury came in the first half against Denver, and he came back against the Jets in Week 11, though he didn’t get many touches in that game.
Anything’s possible, but I don’t think last year’s stats for ANY team will be indicative of this year’s stats.
I’ll happily congratulate this blog on the prognostication if they land at #1 in rushing, but I don’t see it happening again next year.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Stats need to be put in the proper perspective.
I agree that they have no bearing on what will happen in the future. However, it shows what teams are capable of with the guys they have.
For example, we had some injuries at both RB and the offensive line early in the season, but we still managed to do well. Our guys should be healthy this year, and our passing attack should be more of a threat with Brady returning (opening things up for the running game), so there’s plenty of reason to be optimistic. The only guy that left was Lamont Jordan, and he was replaced by Fred Taylor. We’re getting Maroney back, and we’re not worse with him than without him.
So it follows that if we’re capable of being the top rushing team last year despite the things that happened, we’re capable of doing it again. I’m certainly not guaranteeing anything, but the way these comments played out, you’d think it was the craziest notion ever that the Pats can actually run the ball.
yes but last year means nothing for this year – we have Rhodes now – Jets have Greene and White you have Taylor. so everything is different – heck we have a new line this year so thats completely different. we can talk alll day about this – but basing last years team totals to this years discussion is an exercise in futility
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I already mentioned that...
I agree that they have no bearing on what will happen in the future.
I’m saying that we were capable of being the top rushing team in the AFC East with one of our main guys out (Maroney), and our other top guys (Morris, Jordan) missing significant time – to the point where Green-Ellis was starting. If the Pats have already proven they can be at the top, I don’t think it’s as ridiculous as others made it sound to rank them there, even if there are plenty of valid arguments to support the other teams.
With all of them healthy, and Jordan replaced with Taylor, we’re better. Will that translate onto the field? Who knows? Every team has tried to get better during the offseason, I know that, but if we’re gonna rank the top RB’s in the AFC East, what the hell are we basing it on?
Is it production? Talent? If we can’t base it on anything we’ve seen thus far, all of this “future” talk is just conjecture and it’ll be just as you said – an exercise in futility.
if we’re gonna rank the top RB’s in the AFC East, what the hell are we basing it on
we can at least base it off of the actual RB’s and not the team totals of last year when players were added to their respective teams
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Except that we have all the same RB's
Except for one: Jordan. He was replaced with Fred Taylor, and most people here consider that an upgrade.
I just had a discussion with a guy on our forum – this is where I think we got all mixed up.
If you had to put the RB stable of each of the AFCE teams behind the Lions/Raiders or ONE teams line – who would win each and every time?
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
our passing attack should be more of a threat with Brady returning (opening things up for the running game)
That’s an understatement!
Look, i’m not here to persuade anyone to think more of the Bills and less of the Pats, this is a Pats fanblog. I just think things will play out differently. Really, it’s no surprise as the Bills’ fans think the least of the Pats running attack and the Pats’ fans think the least of the Bills running attack.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I really feel like y’all are putting a lot into the stat argument. OF COURSE the Pats have the best rushing stats. They have the best offense on the whole.
Coherent arguments can be made – and have been made in full force at the other three blogs – that in terms of pure talent, the Pats come last. There’s more than one way to look at this, and fortunately, each of those ways makes each fan base look happy.
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by Brian Galliford on Jun 26, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't really have a problem with that.
We’re ranking the top running backs in the AFC East. Other fans will think their running backs are more talented and all that. I think the Patriots do a better job of getting production out of their backs (hence, the stats I outlined above). There can be plenty of reasons for that, like O-line play, a team’s passing threat, etc.
But reading through the comments (and not just here, but on the other blogs), people thought it was crazy to put the Patriots at #1. I personally don’t feel that way, and whether others agree or disagree, all I’m trying to do is outline the reasons why it’s not as crazy as it sounds.
Pats FTW
they may not have the best rushers but together they have the best stable
plus they have a pass attack so they are still the team to beat in the AFC
doesnt matter about the RBs if you cant compete for the SB
Correct, it's the stable as a whole and not individuals
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
Right, I understand that. I just don’t see how the Bills are 3 notches below the Patriots when looking at the big picture. Now, if we start discussing the OL, then sure – we have something more interesting to talk about.
To simply rate the guys toting the rock, I think you have to look at it differently. Those rushing stats come because of an OL. I’ll say the Bills have the WORST line in the AFC East, until proven otherwise. The Pats – the best, yes even better than the Jets, imo.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
lol you dont see how the bills are #3? i told u stats earlier, the bills are not that good of a rushing team imo, u have lynch, jackson, and edwards who fumbled 1/4 of the time he crossed the line and you are going to try to compare that to the stable of morris, maroney, tayler, and green ellis, really? i know i am a pats fan but their backfield is stacked and with brady coming back it doesnt look good for other teams, the pats will win the division this year easily
Edwards did not fumble beyond the line of scrimmage.
It was behind the LoS on sacks.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jun 27, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
but together they have the best stable
disagree – i’d take the ’Phins backfield of yours and the Jets and Bills are better than both…dude
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
doesnt matter about the RBs if you cant compete for the SB
Not to get into a sand-throwing match, but last I knew, the Patriots weren’t competing for a SB last year either.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
True but. . .
they are this year so thats why they are the best
the threat of Welker, Moss, Galloway, ect. will make the RBs play better
and that pats where competing for it they didnt make playoffs but still went 11-5 any other year would of
also the Pats have Faulk he can catch better then any other Rb in afc east so thats also why the Pats have best Rbs
The Lions are competing for a SB right now too.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
you know your not right
they won no games the pats won 11 more thus competed for the SB they could of made it had the Jets won so the last reg season game decided they wouldnt make it the Lions are now where not last year
last year is last year this year is this year so dont say the lions are now when i was talking about last year are the bills and phins not competing this year
Thanks for agreeing with me
first day here nice to have opinion re-enforced
Miami should be 1st
Ronnie Brown was coming off an injury last season and Miami had 2 starting O linemen out last year. This year Miami will have one of the beter OL in the NFL.
by raiden_phin_fan on Jun 26, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions
phins first, u have 2 rushers who put up #’s with the wildcat, they got lucky, once everyone started catching on to that little trick miami got squashed just like they will this year.
miami got squashed just like they will this year.
they’re AFCE champs – FYI
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
and u need to include the whole quote not just the part that u want
“once everyone started catching on to that little trick miami got squashed just like they will this year.”
why?
I was just saying that their AFCE champs. I don’t care about the one little trick as you point out. I’m saying their AFCE champs – until that changes – their the team in the AFCE to beat.
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jun 26, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
because when u decide to include only the part of the quote u want u change the meaning of it. the little trick was the wildcat they got caught and it pretty much became useless, yes they are AFCE champs, but no they are not the team to beat…. at all
How is the reigning AFCE Champion not the team to beat in their division? Because the Cardinals were 9-7 and were SB losers, are they not the team to beat in the NFC?
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
They got squashed by the best defense in the league. No one was getting by the Ravens in that game.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
man, come on read up. no they got squashed in their last 4 reg season games as i stated already, i wasnt even including the ravens, so i change my arguement to the last 5 games
I won’t get into an argument about who’s more well-read here. You’re silly.
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jun 26, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny the Pats board is only one has Pats 1st.
Ricky and Ronnie are the best hands down Ronnie is one of the best in the NFL. You forget last season Ronnie was coming off an injury and Miami had 2 starting O linemen out. This year Miami will Have one of the best OL in NFL and 2 of the best RBs in nfl so the should be very good on the ground.
by raiden_phin_fan on Jun 27, 2009 12:35 PM EDT reply actions
Brian at Rumblings was the only one not to rank his guys first.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jun 28, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The Pats where also injured
they didnt have neal till i think week 6 of the OL
and they didnt have there starting RB healthy so your an idoit for saying thats why they didnt do better,
the pats also didnt have the God of Qbs Brady and when you have a QB like Brady more Defence go back to cover the WRs so the RBs get more yards running thats how the Pats will do better
im arguing the Pats have the best system for their backs no one can say otherwise the Pats will have the best rushing team and if they dont then there Pass Attack will have done way better
Odd Biases at work here
Each person seems to be evaluating this on completely different grounds. Presumably it’s “RB Stable,” and doesn’t involve other factors. So properly judging this would mean which running backs would perform best under the same circumstances. In which, I can’t even imagine a homer claiming the Patriots have the best stable.
Second, if it is just running backs, it’s not hard to subtract Cassel’s 276 yards and 2 TDs from the team running stats. Pennington’s 62 yards, 2 TDs, etc…
If it’s “running game,” I would say offensive line, defense, and other offensive production should be subtracted again — easiest to try to imagine the “running game” behind the rest of the Pats or the Raiders or Lions… but now you’d have to consider QBs and WRs on end arounds, etc. Each of the teams had various success at such plays, but I think we’d find the (admittedly potential) combo of Ginn and White a bigger impact on the running game than Brady and Welker. No?
Also, RB passing production?
I neglected to include: and, of course, shouldn’t RB stable also include the passing and receiving production of the RBs?
Have to disagree
I’m not sure how you can propose the Pats don’t have a good stable when, with a battered RB unit, they bested the AFC East in 2008. Supposedly, they’re healthier this year and have replaced Jordan with Taylor, an upgrade.
I’m just not sure of the logic here.
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
You aren't making a logical arguement
Seems quite simple really. You yourself seem to be saying with a second-rate and injured stable the performance was still good. Therefore, team performance isn’t the best indicator of the skills of the individual players. How many games did the Pats blow out a team lettting them run the rest of the day? How many defenses were far more concerned with the passing game to even care about the running game? That doesn’t make the running backs good, that makes the team good.
It’s quite simple: are you suggesting that Ricky and Ronnie, Jones and Washington, Lynch and Jackson would have done worse on the Patriots last year than BenJarvis, Morris, and Jordan? This, in my mind, is what you have to be willing to say in order to use last year’s total team performance as an indicator of a better RB stable.
Does it matter
id rather have a team where the RBs can get 21 tds and a lot of yards then a Rb thats really good but due to this surrondings can only get 13 td they have the best stats thats what matters in Football
plus the pats dont run so much
does anyone think the pats run all the time ive seen them pass on 3 and 1 up by 2 tds
so if they ran more they Rbs stats would be better
And I would have no problem with such a statement
If you wanted to say the Patriots can have a better running game even without the better personnel, I would not dispute that. If you wanted to say the Patriots could still be great even with a crappy running game, again, I would not dispute that.
But I don’t think that’s what this post was supposed to be about nor is that what most people are claiming. Many, in fact, are saying exactly what I am (without intending to): the personel isn’t great but they still were more effective running so the personnel really is the best (that statement makes no sense and belies the truth that the personnel cannot objectively be called the best.)
An aside, but I can't help it
btw, I’d rather have less rushing yards and TDs and still win the Division.
But neither point of view says anything about which team has the better personnel at a particular position.
Whats the dividion if no Trophy
well the pats still have those SBs
You can be a homer all you want
You can say the Patriots have the best RBs, well, not the best but they had the best running game, well, that running game didn’t help them and it doesn’t prove them the best RBs, but 5 years ago we won a Super Bowl all you’d like… I’m well aware that they’ve won some Super Bowls. I’m trying to have a conversation about who are the best running backs in the AFC East, not trying to prove that Patriots fans are the most annoying people to talk to.
P.S.
And, yes, the Pats did rush a lot because they had a lot of offensive plays. They ranked Fourth in attempts for the entire league, ahead of all other AFC East rivals. And they were only 12th in passing attempts.
All AFC East teams have a pretty similar pass/rush ratio, but (surprising) the Patriots did the most rushing.
Team Pass Rush Ratio
Pats 534 513 1.04
Bills 479 439 1.09
Fins 491 448 1.09
Jets 529 422 1.25
Your memories and perceptions can deceive you.
Now you're not being logical
As you say, it’s really quite simple. If we’re going to start adding variables like “letting them run the rest of the day” or “defenses were far more concerned with the passing game”, then we can’t argue this. Unfortunately, your argument is very common when faced with stats and facts. That is, throw up as many variables as one can think of to dispute what can’t be disputed.
You yourself seem to be saying with a second-rate and injured stable the performance was still good. Therefore, team performance isn’t the best indicator of the skills of the individual players.
Not at all. I’m saying with a banged up RB corps, the Patriots managed the best rushing numbers in the AFC East. It’s as simple as that. I’m not sure why you need to read more into it.
And I never used total team performance to suggest a better RB stable. I use rushing numbers only. I’m really not sure how you can argue last year’s performance has no bearing on determining whether or not we have a better RB stable. What else is there to go on?
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
You said they were SECOND-RATE
How do you go from second-rate to the best?
It’s very simple: do you honestly believe the RBs of the other teams would have performed worse if they were on the Pats? Do you honestly think that the Patriots overall strength as an offense doesn’t augment the running game without requiring the RBs to be better?
Two simple questions, can I get an honest answer.
“That is, throw up as many variables as one can think of to dispute what can’t be disputed.”
Or you know: I can look at the differences in how two teams play and say: you know what, I really think I’d rather have Ronnie Brown than Sammie Morris even if BenJarvis Green-Ellis even if I can look at a higher total yards number at the end of a year. I don’t see how saying the Fins had more trouble moving the ball, rarely had a large lead, had a worse offensive line, and a weaker defense that had them down is throwing in too many variables to juggle.
Edit
EDIT: Or you know: I can look at the differences in how two teams play and say: you know what, I really think I’d rather have Ronnie Brown than BenJarvis Green-Ellis even if I can look at a higher total yards number at the end of a year. I don’t see how saying the Fins had more trouble moving the ball, rarely had a large lead, had a worse offensive line, and a weaker defense that had them down is throwing in too many variables to juggle.
Again, you mis-read and form and invalid argument
with a battered RB unit
How is that second-rate? I said they were banged up. This is becoming tiresome.
I don’t see how saying the Fins had more trouble moving the ball, rarely had a large lead, had a worse offensive line, and a weaker defense that had them down is throwing in too many variables to juggle.
If you had originally said that, this would be a different discussion.
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
Let me rephrase my entire argument
It would have been a breath of fresh air if as Patriots bloggers you said: no one can really count on Maroney and even when he has played and shown flashes he hasn’t really lit it up, Taylor is perpetually injured and at the end of his career and probably won’t have much opportunity to be the workhorse he needs to be to be successful, Morris is a classic, reliable journeyman but he’s not on anyone’s radar… despite having the least talented of the 4 RB stables, none of that matters — as last year shows (with an even worse stable), the Patriots led the division in rushing and having one of the most high powered offenses ever means that the Patriots could have success with far worse RBs.
That would have been brilliant and accurate. But repeating over and over, they had the best running stats, therefore, they are the best running backs is just quite simply a bad joke and the typical rationalization expected from a Patriots homer.
Here we go again...
But repeating over and over, they had the best running stats, therefore, they are the best running backs is just quite simply a bad joke and the typical rationalization expected from a Patriots homer.
I never said they are the best running backs. Far from it. NE has rarely, if ever, had individual running backs that compare with the rest of the AFC East. I did, however, lay down evidence they could have the best stable based on last year’s stats. Again, this is getting tiresome and we’re going nowhere.
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
They have nice lockers?
You just said they aren’t the best, but they are the best stable? What does that mean?
Nowhere in your post do you say, I don’t think they are actually as good as these other guys — you just go on and on about Maroney having a thousand yards, Fred Taylor still being at peak, etc…
THe Pats r the best
all that needs to be said
RB
I think Miami the only team capable of losing the starting RB and still have a legit chance of getting 1000 yards from our backup
Fred Jackson could post that many yards in a season.
He had 571 last year starting three games.
I don’t remember which games he started except Week 17 against New England where he had 136 yards.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jun 28, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
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