Is the Patriots Offense to complex?
We have heard for years that it is hard for a rookie or a free agent to walk onto the field and blend into the Patriots offensive system. We witnessed this all year in 2006 with Reche Caldwell and this year with cry baby Joey Galloway. Are we to believe that the intricacy of the evolving Charlie Weis/Josh McDaniel's Patriots offense is so complex and difficult compared to the two Super Bowl teams? How is it that in such a short time, players such as; Pierre Garcon, Austin Collie, Anthony Gonzalez, Robert Meachem, and Marques Colston can flourish and adapt while Reche Caldwell, Joey Galloway, Donte Stallworth, and David Thomas cannot? Is it not safe to say that Tom Moore and Pete Carmichael Jr. run similar bunch, spread, shotgun, trip, four and five wide formations as the Patriots do? It's painful to watch the young quartet of receivers in Indy and New Orleans bursting onto the scene when the Patriots can't find a dependable third and fourth receiver to take the heat off of Moss and Welker.
On draft day, the Patriots have been dreadful finding talent at the wide receiver and tight end position. The Patriots may have developed David Givens and Deion Branch that helped win three Super Bowls, but what about the Matt Slater, Chad Jackson, and Bethel Johnson's of the world? Does it not hurt your eyes to watch tight end after tight end come into this system such as Rod Rutledge, Daniel Graham, David Thomas, and Ben Watson fail to live up to expectations? Just look around the league and see the talent that is generated from that position; Vernon Davis, Dustin Keller, John Carlson, Zach Miller, Brent Celek, and Kevin Boss to name a few. I know that David Thomas had the injury bug and showed flashes of his catching ability while stuck down the Patriots depth chart, but he looked pretty fluid for the Saints and not the Patriots on his way to the Super Bowl. When looking at some of the Saints and Colts receiving core, they did not come from big programs in college that pumped out receiver after receiver each year. Hell no, they came from Hofstra, Tennessee, BYU, Iowa, and Mount Union. Are you kidding me, Mount Union?
Could it be that the Patriots are not utilizing their players correctly? Why Peyton Manning and Drew Brees are are able to be on the same page with their young receivers than Tom Brady is beyond me? I believe there is a big misnomer when talking about the Patriots and the complexity of the offensive system that they run. From what I saw this year the offense looked boring, bland, monotonous and worst of all predictable. I guess that's what happens to an offense that is too complex for rookies and free agents to catch onto.
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Very valid points
It does seem like these two teams have been able to slot in anyone and have them be successful. I wish I had the answer…
I've wondered much the same.
The frustrating thing about this year was – how can the routes and blocking be so sophisticated that players have trouble picking it up but the play calling be so predictable that defenses would know exactly how to deal with it?
Every defensive player on the other teams is a genius?
Offensive players who are dumber than a box of rocks?
More like the latter. The Patriots employ a route tree:
If the defense shows A (e.g. pressure on the line), run route 1 (e.g. parallel route).
If the defense shows B (e.g. outside coverage), run route 2 (e.g. inside slant).
If the defense shows C (e.g. inside coverage), run route 3 (e.g. sideline route).
The routes depend on the play called, the receiver position X, Y, Z, and defensive coverage.
Brady has to see what the receiver sees in order for him to know what the route is going to be.
If you change receiver position (flanker to slot), your route tree changes.
What makes it difficult for Edelman and Stanback is that they never learned route running because they were never receivers. It’s difficult for Aiken because he has to learn all of that on top of his special teams (every formation) work. It’s difficult for Galloway, because he never had to learn more than one receiver position.
By comparison to those guys, Gaffney is a Rhode’s Scholar.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Jan 28, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Good explanation
Thanks for breaking it down in a way this box of rocks can understand, lol.
Keep the faith!
very true, but within that, my real problem is in the stubbornness of our checkdown progression
Brady almost ALWAYS could be seen looking first for Moss. Then for Welker. Then for …
Same sequence again and again. This makes the defense’ job easy. If they simply take Moss away, they automatically give the pass rush 1-2 seconds extra to break through the blocks. If they take both Moss and Welker away, then they get 2-4 free seconds. Then just as Brady would get to his 3rd or 4th options, he would feel the pressure and hurry the throw.
The Saint's game was so obvious in this.
They only rushed 3 or 4, dropping 7 or even 8 in coverage. They had both Moss AND Welker doubled all the time, without giving up coverage on everybody else..
Brady was still going through the same progressions and so even with just 3 guys rushing, they STILL were able to get pressure on Brady. Because of those wasted seconds.
Change the progressions. Use the screen pass. Run Faulk up the middle on the draw. Easy solutions to what the Saints did to us. Yet we did none of those things.
Saints had the personnel
to really highlight – and then exploit – the weaknesses in the Patriots about as subtly as a jackhammer. That was probably the finest game the Saints played all season. Hope they can replicate it in Miami.
Keep the faith!
they also scouted the refs well
they knew that crew tended to keep their flags in their pockets so Peyton had his defensive backs pounding our WRs the whole game, daring the refs to throw the flags.
We, on the other hand, played extremely soft defense and Brees killed us for it.
I blame that loss squarely on getting out-coached on both sides of the ball.
You mean you hope Payton thoroughly out-coaches Peyton this time
‘cause it’s Manning calling his own plays at the line, changing up what the OC is telling him to do.
Keep the faith!
D'oh - too many P*ytons!
’Wish this board would let us edit our posts to fix typos!
And yeah, Manning definitely is the real offensive play caller on the Colts.
Manning alters the plays at the line, but...
Moore still draws up the plays, audibles and game plans. Peyton isn’t drawing up routes in the dirt out there. He’s got an excellent offensive mind behind him. Playing QB for the Colts is like eating out in the North End – you can’t really go wrong, because all the options are good ones.
Does anyone else agree?
If the defense shows A,B,or C and the routes depend on the play called, the receivers position and the defensive coverage. Would it not make sence for the Patriots to draft receivers and/or pick up free agents who can run the proper routes and do not need to learn them? How about the Pats stop waisting draft picks on projects and aging Vets and make an effort to get some real talent!
by Brady's Revenge on Jan 28, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
You definitely need smarter receivers (and actual receivers are a bonus):
The route tree’s advantage is that it can give you a better route to run based off of coverage (why run INTO the cornerback?). But to do it effectively, the receiver has to:
1. Line up properly. Did anyone else see Moss and/or Welker pointing guys to their position? On the defense, that tells me that guy isn’t likely to get the ball. Slide toward Moss or Welker.
2. Read the coverage. Is it man-man or zone coverage? Is the CB playing off the line? Is he slid to one side? What does your film study tell you about this formation? This is where smart receivers help.
3. Choose the correct route based on coverage and which receiver position you are in. This is where smart receivers help.
4. Run the correct route without letting on to the defense what that route is. This is where “real” receivers help.
5. Catch the freaking ball. Everytime. Watch it all the way to your hands. Catch it with your hand(s) (not helmet, not pads, not chest. As Welker put it, “They’re going to hit you anyway, so you might as well catch the ball.” This is where “real” receivers help.
6. Tuck the ball away, and run toward their endzone. Holding the ball the whole way. Especially when tackled.
The checkdown order is based on the play called. Sometimes Moss is the first, sometimes Welker. Unfortunately, it never looked like #3 or #4 was set up as the primary receiver on any call.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Jan 28, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think the offense is too complex
I think some players either just aren’t smart enough or aren’t willing to work hard enough.
Look, Julian Edelman made his share of mistakes this year, but he picked up the offense. And he wasn’t just a rookie — he was a rookie making the transition to a position he’d never played before. If he can do as well as he did under these circumstances this year, the offense isn’t too complex.
But Edelman is presumably smarter than the average bear...
He was a college QB, so that ought to mean he’s a little brighter than the average WR coming out of college. Maybe that was the difference? Brady himself said that Edelman had a knack for knowing where he was meant to be, because he could think of it from a QB’s point of view. Galloway couldn’t – his explanation was “I didn’t think…” Correct, Mr Galloway.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Jan 28, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Galloway had over a decade in the NFL
If you’ve lasted that long in the NFL and can’t pick up the offense as well as a rookie making a position change, no matter how smart he is, you’re an idiot. NFL offenses aren’t rocket science — they’re not that complicated.
Haha, isn't that what Brady was screaming at Galloway on the sidelines, that time?
Galloway had a decade in the NFL as a Z receiver. A fairly productive deep-route guy, but pretty much only a deep-route guy. He more or less admitted that that’s what he thought he was signing up for – only deep routes. He was baffled by a playbook that didn’t read “run 50 yards down the field; repeat”. Bruschi said as much, too – Galloway wasn’t prepared to put the work in to learn all the nuances of X, Y, Z, and all the varying routes – slants, hooks, etc. Galloway was hoping to be solely a ‘go’ route… and all that did was make Belichick tell him to ‘go’ to hell.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Jan 28, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
Its not the complexity, its the conitnuity of coaching that NO and IN have experienced
The Colts have had the same O coordinator since 1998 and Sean Payton IS the Saints O coordinator. I think people underestimate how huge this is. Having continuity in coaching is essential to getting the most out of the coaches, and therefore, the players. Indy and NO have not suffered the same brain drain that the Patriots have and thus they have an easier time easing new players into their system.
Its no different that what goes on in the workplace
If you are a new employee and your manager is experienced in his position to teach you, then you will pick up the system faster than if you were a new employee with a new manager who is also learning on the job.
yeah, this is a very valid point.
Part of why it is hard to hold on to an NFL ‘dynasty’. Staff turnover.
I agree to disagree
As much as you lay out valid points, the patriots system stays somewhat the same from year to year, adding new plays and adapting or getting rid of ones that did not work. And for this I believe it is the talent level that is brought in make the difference supposed to who is calling the plays. With the NFL coaching carousel constantly spinning with teams flip flopping coordinators, there has to be a basic system in place that only becomes tweaked from year to year. Otherwise players, even the great ones, would take enormous time to continually learning a new system. I could be wrong with this, but a slant is a slant and a button hook is a button hook no matter what system you are in.
by Brady's Revenge on Jan 28, 2010 5:01 PM EST reply actions
Playcalling changes
McDaniel’s 2007 scheme, even if it was similar on the books to O’Brien’s 2009 scheme, was worked in quite a different way. The 2009 team underutilised the play-action pass, partly because they tended to abandon the run in the second half. For whatever reason, they loved the idea of throwing bombs to Randy; perhaps it’s a 2007 hangover that they want 50 yard TDs in every game. But what they didn’t do was use the play-action to get them – play-action can freeze the D and give an extra second or two of pass-blocking AND time for Randy to get downfield. Instead they were going five wide and trying to throw it deep on obvious passing downs – a far lower success rate.
Why the change? New co-ordinator play-calling things, even if he’s working with the same playbook.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Jan 28, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
just go back and look at the rushing stats for 2007 & 2008
and compare to this (2009) year.
We were a top-tier rushing team in most recent years. This offensive line KNOWS how to run block. (I’m willing to be that, like most lines, they even PREFER to run block). The ran for over 2000 yards in 2008!
We came out of the gate with a very strong stable of running backs – arguably stronger than 2008.
They added Vollmer to the line – he was on a great run-blocking line at Houston in college.
I thought for sure we would at least be comparable, if not better at running the ball compared to 2008.
Instead, we treated it as if it was distasteful, embarassing to actually have to run the ball.
houston is a pass happy team
every game the qb throws 400+ yards
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
i love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
That's a little unlikely
Slaton, at one point during the season, had a fumble for every 10 times he touched the ball – 5 fumbles in 50 carries. L-Mo hasn’t even had 5 on his whole career.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Jan 29, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
oh...i was talking about vollmer's school
the qb routinely passes for 500 yards every other game
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
i love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
The U of Houston rushed for over 2100 yards adn 23 TDs in Vollmer's last year (2008).
In 13 games.
Yes they are a pass-happy school. But they also racked ’em up on the ground that year.
The point being – he came to the NFL knowing how to open a hole for a running back!
Play-action wasn't the only thing lacking.
The screen game was just about non-existant all season. Is the defense getting upfield aggressively with blitzing? Throw a screen and then they have to slow down and look for something other than getting to the QB.
Another thing is TB got spoiled in 2007(as did we all) with the offense. It was way too easy. He got used to RM or WW almost always being open. Think back to the 3 SB wins, his mantra was “throw to the open guy”. Well, he didn’t do that this season. He tried to force the ball at times all year. Granted, he may not have trusted the #3 and #4 receivers and heavy pressure makes checking down more difficult, but he used to be able to read the D and know who was the most likely to be open. I don’t know if it was from the playcalling from the sidelines or if TB just felt like his only choice was to look to RM and WW, but to be successful next year, he must go back to his mentality of 2001-2004.
"Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory...lasts forever."-Shane Falco, "The Replacements"
Lack of screen-passes would be playcalling
I don’t think they’d have a screen-pass as an audible for Brady to adjust into, so if they weren’t doing it, presumably it’s O’Brien’s fault for not calling them, rather than Brady’s for not audibling into screens.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Jan 28, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yep.
Remember how often we used the screen in the early (superbowl) years? Faulk was the absolute best at peeling off his block and catching it in motion on the screen.
I thought they called less screens then they needed...
but someone was tipping the plays – because the D line never bit.
too complex?? if the giants and the ravens could know the audibles...i'm sure the wr could pick it up
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
i love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
I don't know
After seeing the Pro Bowl today and hearing just how much Ray Lewis contributes at MLB in playcalling, I have a whole new respect for the guy as a footballer. He was calling out their plays before they were, and most of the time he was right. He wasn’t so much reading the O formation as pre-guessing the O Co-ordinator. It was quite a sight, and I kinda wished they used the helmet-mic more often, because it was decidedly interesting.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
i saw ( just for 1 min) the giants pats sb
and the commenter for the 30 min clip said…the giants knew all the audibles and line protection calls….i’m surprised even till now (ravens game- ray knew all the audibles and line protection calls) they dont change it up.
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
i love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Yeah, Ray had us scouted to a T.
It was uncanny how well they were timing the snap count.
Well, things will be diff't
for 2010. With Welker out for likely half the season, Tom will have to rely on other WRs and the TEs big time in the passing attack. Maybe it will look like pre-Moss/Welker era, back when all the commentators were Always going on and on about how many WRs were catching passes from Tom. That’s all we heard before 2007.
i want that back
charlie weis offense never fails. enough w. the shotgun snaps. i want a double tight set, ace formation w. 3 wr, 1 te. PA is much better under center than it is under the gun. teams know how to beat this spread formation installed by McD
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
i love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Tend to agree
We need to get back to playing sound defense with attitude and having Tom complete the pass to which ever receiver is open, pre Moss and Welker.
We can get some more attitude if we have fewer "quiet workers" and more "vocal leaders".
A little more competition like: “Hey, Adalius! I guess they’re running to your side, ‘cause they know I don’t let anybody through here!”
With Vrabel gone, that voice was silent, and so was Adalius.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 2, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions

































