Offensive Player of the Game: ...Randy Moss?
by Richard Hill on Oct 6, 2010 1:00 PM EDT
in Opinion/Analysis
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(Richie's Editors note: I had written this literally 15 minutes before the rumors started flying yesterday that Moss would be traded. I'm posting this anyways)
Patriots wide receiver Randy Moss ran down field the entire game, but was only thrown at once. Was he slacking off again? What was the reason for such a statistically disappointing night? Let's look at the other receivers:
Wes Welker - 10 targets, 8 receptions, 70 yards.
Brandon Tate - 5 targets, 4 receptions, 39 yards.
Aaron Hernandez - 5 targets, 5 receptions, 29 yards.
Danny Woodhead - 1 target, 1 reception, 11 yards, 1 TD.
Rob Gronkowski - 1 target, 1 reception, 4 yards.
If these other players were able to produce against the Miami Dolphins' defense, why wasn't Moss getting any yardage? Heck, why wasn't Moss getting any looks? Were cornerback Vontae Davis and safety Chris Clemons that phenomenal in pass coverage? Or was it the game plan all along?
Let's look a little deeper after the jump!
Moss was taken out on numerous plays- and by numerous, I mean almost every play. Davis played 7-10 yards back off Moss, which means that Moss could have run hitch routes to catch the ball and pick up 5-6 yards. Every time. So why didn't Moss adjust and try and make some plays? Why did he continue to run down the field? Was it the coaches fault for not adjusting? Or do you already know where I'm going with this?
Moss gave up catching the ball for 5-6 yards and let the other players do the work. Every time he streaked down the field, he had #1 CB Vontae Davis and safety Chris Clemons tagging along for the route. That means that Moss pulled two players out of box, away from the line of scrimmage and away from other Patriots' receivers. Why should Moss catch the ball for a short gain, when he can open the field for a 10 yard pick-up by other players? That's called playing a team game.
Look at the skill sets of the players with reception:
Aaron Hernandez - Large Slot Receiver
Wes Welker - Shifty Slot Receiver
Danny Woodhead - Shifty Receiver Out of the Backfield
Brandon Tate - Shifty Sideline Receiver
Moss running down field opens up the underneath routes run by Hernandez, Welker and Woodhead. Moss' route, in conjunction with the slot receivers' routes, means that Tate faces a lot of single coverage against the #3 cornerback. That's a great match-up, every time.
Was Davis really a shutdown corner? I wouldn't go so far to say that. He's an excellent corner and when he's paired with a safety, there's little chance for Moss to make a play. Is that shutdown in the sense that the defense prevented a player from producing? Yeah, I guess. Is it shutdown in the sense that they stopped the player with no detriment to the rest of the defense? I don't think so. Having Davis and a safety on Moss definitely hurt the defense as other Patriots players were able to produce.
Hopefully Moss can continue this type of team play and maybe he'll catch a deep throw every once in a while- just know that if a defense takes Moss out of the game, it usually means some other player is open. I don't know how long Moss will be happy if he doesn't catch anything, but the Patriots offense as a whole will be more than happy to take advantage.
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This is exactly why losing Moss is so much more than losing "a 33-year old receiver with 9 catches in 4 games"
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
cuz Moss was just some dude who can run very fast
he canz takez any fast guyz and replace him obviously.
I think...
very few people look at it that way. If they do, they are obviously ignorant.
But the fact is the Randy Moss was not happy being a decoy to open up stuff underneath for other receivers. He wasn’t ever going to be happy in that role, but he especially wasn’t going to be happy with it in a contract year when his current team seemed disinclined to resign him. Frankly, it’s hard to blame him for this. It’s a lot easier to be a “team first” player if the team has shown you that they are willing to take care of you.
Of course I can also understand why the Patriots weren’t eager to sign a 33 year old receiver to hefty long-term contract. It was just an untenable situation all around, and as surprising as it seemed initially, when you look at everything in perspective the trade seems inevitable.
"If you know how to cheat, start now." - Earl Weaver
by rebop on Oct 6, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
But the fact ?
But the fact is the Randy Moss was not happy being a decoy to open up stuff underneath for other receivers. He wasn’t ever going to be happy in that role,
How do you know this?
I can believe that he was not happy about not having a long-term deal. He said so.
But I see no evidence that he was not content to help his team win, whether he catches the ball or not.
He sure seemed pretty excited and happy on the field on Monday, celebrating each time his teammates did something.
Here are some simple facts based on what people have actually said plust two simple guesses.
1) Moss wanted a long term contract. He made that known to the Patriots because he respects them and wanted it to be with them.
2) Moss did not expect the Patriots to give him a long term deal.
3) Moss then asked for a trade – I’ll guess that was to a select set of places, MN being one of them because of his history there.
4) Bellichek has always effused praise and respect for Moss.
5) I’ll guess that out of respect for Randy and the fact that a trade is a way of securing a firm (in this case) 3rd rd pick instead of the floating and at most 5th rd compensatory pick, BB agreed to the trade.
It also makes sense from a ‘trade-from-strength’ aspect because right now, the Pats are rich in quality receivers.
He yelled at Bill O'Brien at halftime on Monday.
Reiss reported or confirmed that, I forget which.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
He confirmed it.
Moss doesn’t want to be a decoy. No one does. I don’t think that the most team-friendly player in the NFL would be satisfied with a job of being a game day decoy.
by Richard Hill on Oct 6, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Especially not when he's wanting a contract at the end of this year.
“But I played well and I drew double-coverage on every play and I was a good soldier!”
“That’s great, Randy. Here’s a $2m contract. You caught 40 passes total”.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Oct 6, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
That ticket to the Ravens game
Just got that much better, get to see the post-Moss offense make its debut. Considering I’m going with 3 Ravens fans, this could be an awesome or awful game for me.
Yikes.
The way they play the Pats, compressing the field and daring a play over the top, makes that ticket a nightmare. I hope I’m wrong, but without Moss to spread the field, I think the Pats offense might have trouble. We might see a lot more 2 and 3 TE sets in the coming weeks.
True wealth is a shelf full of unread books.
by Hometown Gyro on Oct 6, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Appearntly moss was angry and bill o Brien at half time
if that’s the case, we traded the wrong guy for the wrong reason. since everyone pretty much agrees in unison that O’Brien is turrible.
Except, according to Tedy Bruschi, players were upset with Moss
…and why do I have the feeling that Tedy has more insight than most media members…and you;)
by frogfromthemud on Oct 6, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah i saw that....i trust bru's insight over any media outlet
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
It doesn't escape my attention...
that the first time Bill O’Brien cranks out an offensive game-plan and game-calling that didn’t rely on Moss as a receiver (and try to jam it to him a dozen times), the Pats crank out the best second-half scoring they’ve had since 2007.
Maybe O’Brien was second-guessing his offence because he felt he had to throw it to a Hall of Fame-lock WR too often. But it definitely looked improved when they stopped throwing it to Moss in coverage. I’m taking nothing away from Moss-as-double-coverage-eater, but still, that just renders him a $7M decoy.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Except that scoring was mostly by Special Teams and Defense.
Yes, the new game plan was successful in its limited application. But please don’t misrepresent where all that new second half scoring actually came from.
And to suggest that it didn’t rely on Moss is ignoring the fact that on all three of the critical passes of the key drive to push the lead to 27-14, the play was designed to go underneath the coverage as Moss pulled two defenders from that area. They definitely relied on Moss on those plays.
Any deep-threat WR would've drawn that coverage
That was a base set with a Safety in a Cover-2 deep zone fixing on the #1 deep-threat WR. That’s how the coverage is designed – any WR on that route would’ve drawn that safety. That’s what a cover-2 zone IS.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
That is simply not true.
The safety is NOT required to double the flanker over the top. It is an option based on the situation.
If you have a corner capable of single coverage you are better off keeping that Safety on the inside of the route – for exactly the reasons that the Woodhead touchdown illustrates.
But the fact is, the ’Phins did not have faith that Davis could cover Moss deep in the corner so the first move othe safety was to go over the top of the corner covering Moss. Meanwhile, on the other side of the play, Tate was also going into the corner and Welker went along with him. On that side, the safety went over to help out but did stay just over Welker rather than trying to get over the top of Tate, in position to help on both, but if Tate were to have beat his man to the corner a lob to him would have been undefended.
The net result in that alignment is that the the safeties chose to double Moss and no one else.
Replace Moss with a lesser WR and then Davis suddenly feels he can cover that guy and the Safety stays inside and simply comes up and stops Woodhead well short of the goal line.
They weren't doubled
Look at those safeties. They’re sitting on their normal Cover-2 markers. That’s called a “Cover-2”. They’re not “doubling” anyone – they’re sitting on their markers watching their zones. It just so happens that WRs are nearby.
Bozo the Clown could line up instead of Moss, run that route, and that Safety would still be in that same exact spot, because that’s how the zone is drawn up. That’s just a plain old Cover-2.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Oct 6, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay - you and I must be living in alternate realities
because you seem to keep missing the point – cover 2 only sets up the default positions. But the safeties don’t stand like statues. They read and move.
In that play, sure the left safety starts in his normal spot. But at the snap he immediately dropped back over the top behind Davis. And the other safety dropped over the top of Welker’s route, just inside of Tate’s. That is not ‘sitting on their markers’. That’s assisting in coverage.
I don’t know why you think the fact that they are in “Cover-2” is relevant. In all coverages the safeties’ job is to read and make a decision on where to provide assistance and that is always either to come up in run support, pick up an extra receiver (i.e. a RB or TE) or help a someone else in coverage. When he helps a someone else in coverage on a receiver, guess what? That is called ‘double coverage’. Yes – we don’t stop calling it that just because its out of Cover 2.
And in the play being discussed, the video clearly shows that the left safety decided to drop over the top to provide double coverage on Moss. If he had actually stayed on his mark, he would have been in position to stop the play to Woodhead – but he didn’t. So please stop insisting that he did. The video is crystal clear.
Umm, thanks for proving the point...
But at the snap he immediately dropped back over the top behind Davis. And the other safety dropped over the top of Welker’s route, just inside of Tate’s.
Cover-2. Markers. Sitting. Etc.
That’s not double-coverage. That’s zone. Cover-2 = “over the top” zone. That’s why both safeties are in mirroring, identically-placed positions – dead-middle of the end zone, at the same distance (20 yards, maybe) from the sideline.
Cover-2. Zone. Markers. In end-zone. Ie – where they’re drawn up to be. Not man.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
we are obviously talking past each other here
You are stuck on the fact that Cover 2 CAN drop both safeties into double coverage on the corners and ignoring the fact that they don’t have to because they also have responsibilities for the middle of the field – you know, the very area that they failed to protect on that play.
You are also ignoring the distinction between inside versus over the top when assisting. The right-side safety did NOT go over the top of Tate’s route. He stayed inside, which happened to be on top of Welker’s.
The left safety if he stayed ‘on his mark’ would have been inside of Moss’ route, but he instead went over the top. And that is why Woodhead got in the end zone. That is direct cause and effect.
They went where the anchors were
Moss was the only player near the SS’s mark, so he shifted that way. The FS had two guys near his mark, so he split the difference. It doesn’t mean the SS was ‘double-covering’ Moss per se – he was covering his zone that coincidentally only had Moss in it.
Real “double-coverage” of Moss would have the guy matching up on Moss. Having a guy zoned-up on Moss is different – if Moss had run a comeback route (say he hypothetically stopped, turned around, and ran out of the End Zone 30 yards back to the QB for some reason) the CB would go with him, but the Safety wouldn’t. That’s what I mean when I say the Safety would stay on his mark – he wouldn’t leave the End Zone, even if Moss did.
The other way in which Moss isn’t double-covered is if a second WR went into the area with Moss, that Safety wouldn’t have remained sitting on Moss, but would have split the difference between Moss and the other WR – it’d be like one-and-a-half coverage of both WRs, because that’s how the zone is arranged.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
distinction without a difference.
It doesn’t change the way the safety reacted to Moss nor the effect that reaction had on the play. The safety went over the top – because of fear Moss would beat the corner. Because of that, he was late in recovering to the middle, enabling Woodhead to cross the goal line.
You have also created your own definition for the ‘double covered’ semantic that is not shared and basically spent all this arguing over that semantic rather than what actually, physically happened on the play.
I know, it's awkward...
but there was once a time when Moss demanded that two guys be literally glued onto him – one high, one low. It’s not so much that Randy wasn’t double-covered (he did have a Safety over the top, no dispute), but that Safety was treating him like any other WR. Considering it started off as a debate about whether Randy ‘drew safeties’ because he’s a premier threat, I can honestly look at that tape (and other plays in the last couple of games), and I’m not sure they quite did any more. They didn’t take away the Safeties entirely (like they might with a ‘meh’ WR like Slater or Aiken), but they didn’t do anything special to Randy any more.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Oct 11, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
New Orleans has one of, if not the best passing attack in the league
and they don’t have a receiver with anywhere near the skill set of Moss. They have a bunch of good/very good receivers for Brees to choose from on any given play. People are acting as if the Patriots passing game will be destroyed without someone to draw double coverage on every play, but they are ignoring that almost every other team with a good passing attack doesn’t have a Moss-type receiver! Moss adds one element to an offense and presents certain advantages, but he also lacks other dimensions. He’s not the centerpiece of offense, and they are still going to be able to function more than ably without him.
While his skills shouldn’t be minimized, neither should the impact of his loss be blown out of proportion. The Patriots still have one of the deepest and most talented receiving corps (including TEs and RBs) in the league, and the best decision making machine under center.
You might be right
but we don’t have any proof that Brady can play as well as Brees as in NO without Moss.
We have proof of Brees playing great without a Moss type receiver, we have proof that Brady is a great player, but not an elite statistical player without Moss (he still won because his defense was a lot better). Brady might prove me and the others wrong.
Plus, the Saints, in my opinion, have the best set of pass-catchers in the league. Colston is a top-10-15 receiver. Moore is a great slot receiver. Henderson and Meachem are burners. Shockey has played well, and all of their backs can catch it out of the backfield.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Also NO gas Sean Payton calling the offense
Which is like having BB on offense. Meanwhile we have o Brien who seems know only how to run the most vanIlla of plays.
by lololol on Oct 6, 2010 2:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
he was calling good plays the past two games imo.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Two rather Moss-less games, too.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Mhmm
He’s one of those guys who is almost impossible to defend in the End Zone because he’s so tall and athletic. Thankfully, the Pats have another one of those guys in Gronkowski. He’s scored a couple, too…
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Uhhh
You must have missed that catch between 3 defenders. Moss and Tate ran mirror routes but moss got to the ball well before Tate and it otherwise would have been an int if anyone else was running the route. Ppl here are really undervaluing moss…
by lololol on Oct 7, 2010 9:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Actually it would not. Moss had 2 steps advantage, and the review showed...
…the only person who could have intercepted it was a referee. Not much of a chance. Now I think of it… could happen at Indy. :D
by frogfromthemud on Oct 7, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Really? i mean it
i’m watching the play and i see 3 defenders converging on moss as the ball goes into his hands. The ref blocks one of the defenders but there were two other guys. Even if it isn;t intercepted, Tate was a good few yards away from where Randy was despite running the same route, so no way anyone else in a pats uniform gets the ball. Plus being a third down it would have changed the complexion of the game. Like i said, once Moss left everything he has done for the became undervalued and no longer was he the team leader everyone said he was thru the 3 years but sudden a distraction and a problem. And this really annoys me.
It was put there for Moss...
If Moss isn’t on the field, Brady will just have to put it where someone else is. It’s not like he hasn’t done it before – see: 2001-2006.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
TatWatched again. Stopped the screen. Moss 2 steps ahead, ball into the place he run. Clear catch.
If Tate were not run a mirror, you would not even notice.
by frogfromthemud on Oct 7, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
From that distance, I'd run Gronk in that skinny-post route he ran in preseason
Have Tate out wide left and cut him infield to drag the Safety onto him – much the same route as Randy ran – but instead have Gronk run vertical and then hit the edge on a flag-route. He’d be one-on-one with someone, and at 6’6", 270lbs, that’s a pretty sure TD.
If the Safety misreads their zone and focuses on Gronk, then jab it into Tate as soon as the Safety bites. Either he slips his man and it’s a TD, or he’s tackled just short of the goal-line and the run game punches it in.
Just saying what I’d do with the Moss-less personnel, but between Tate’s speed and Gronk’s height, you can replace Moss at that distance – albeit by committee.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
It's a loss, but we're not suddenly on the same level as the Browns.
The reaction has been that removing Moss from our offense is going to be absolutely devastating, and nobody can possibly fathom how the Patriots are going to be able to function without him. I cite the example of NO merely to show that when you have an elite QB (a premise I’m not debating for the purposes of this post) and a mess of great/good receivers, you can still have a devastatingly good offense.
As I see it, BB doesn’t do anything without being prepared. It stands to reason that they’ve been preparing for this change for longer than we all realize (evidenced by Monday’s game, irrespective of Moss’ impact thereon), and we’re going to see a very different offense after the next couple of weeks. There might be some growing pains, but I think they end up being a more effective unit (fewer turnovers, fewer three-and-outs, longer drives) than they were over the past 21 games.
You're definitely far from the Browns
you’re probably like the Bears (without the massive fails at o-line) or Ravens level (not in that the offense is similar in what it does, but how good it is overall), in my mind.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
You have to be kidding...
Brady was an elite quarterback before Randy Moss came to New England, and he did it regularly with a sub-par receiving corps. Brady won three Superbowls without Randy Moss, and zero with him. I’m not saying losing Moss makes Brady better, but you are not giving him near enough credit. I’m not taking anything away from Brees or his receivers, but we have plenty of evidence Tom Brady can be an elite quarterback without Randy Moss, and he still has better receivers now than in 2006.
"If you know how to cheat, start now." - Earl Weaver
You have evidence he can win and be a great QB
you don’t have evidence that he can put up the numbers he put up in 2007, 2009 and so far in 2010 without Moss.
He won because he had a better defense then, he doesn’t have that defense now.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
remember
Brady had to make game winning drives to win all 3 of those SBs.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
He's a good player
but he didn’t win Super Bowls without any help.
He had the most resourceful, toughest defense in the NFL on his side.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Your right, he didn't do it on his own
but are we to assume that he can win the super bowl THIS year on his own though? Because he had moss? Even if we had moss still, I don’t think Moss is the difference between a superbowl, and not a superbowl. It;s a team game. If our defense doesn’t play up to our standards, then I don’t think we’ll win.
But if they DO play up to our standards, than we can still win a superbowl with or without moss.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
What I am saying is that the Patriots need to play somewhere between their 2009 and 2007 level on offense
if they want to win a super bowl, because I doubt their defense approaches what it was in 2003 and 2004. I just think it will be a lot harder to be good enough on offense without Moss to make up for the deficiencies on defense. That’s all. Brady’s great, but Moss made him better. It was a two-way street, and Brady made Moss better, but Moss has put up close to those numbers with other guys throwing to him. Brady’s never put up those numbers without Moss (and Welker). Brady’s won rings without Moss, but that is due to their defense being better before Moss got there.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
2007 and 2009
were mostly JUST welker and Moss shows. No diversity. And teams caught up with that. They were off guard in 07 too.
So what your saying is, is that we are no longer good on offense, simply because we lost moss? I know you didn’t SAY that, but what your saying is, is that we HAVE to be a PASS PASS PASS team that scores A LOT of points every game.
We can still score a lot of points, or at least score enough to be a top 5 offense.
Regardless if we have moss or not, we WON’T win the super bowl, if we are only effective in one phase of the game(offense).
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
I am saying that I have doubts that you can be good enough on offense without Moss
to make up for the lack of a good defense. Whether the offense is good enough with Moss anyway: in my opinion. probably not, but I really think it isn’t now.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I still think it is a top 5 offense, especially with Brad at the helm. So to think we're doomed offensively is foolish(not saying you said Doomed either).
I think we’ll still be a top 10 team.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
I think you went from one of the top-3 offense
to a top-10 one.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I said top 10 "team."
but yes, because we won’t be “lighting up” with passing offense, we’ll be a top 10 offense still.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Brady led the NFL in passing yards in 2005 with zero 1000 yard passers
even Brees had one last year, and he spread more than 30 passes to 7 different receivers.
Brady invented the prototype for Brees; Payton said as much when he constructed his roster.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
I mean...
…‘07 was an anomaly. No one’s going to match that.
’09, on the other hand…
2009: 4398 Yards, 28 TDs, 13 INTs, 65.7% completion
2006: 3529 Yards, 24 TDs, 12 INTs, 61.8% completion, 0 Receivers
2005: 4110 Yards, 26 TDs, 14 INTs, 63.0% completion
2004: 3692 Yards, 28 TDs, 14 INTs, 60.8% completion
2003: 3620 Yards, 23 TDs, 12 INTs, 60.2% completion
2002: 3764 Yards, 28 TDs, 14 INTs, 62.1% completion
Apart from the yardage and the completion rate spike (due to the addition of Welker), every other number seems pretty consistent. The yardage differential also has a lot to do with the fact that Brady hasn’t had a real definitive running back since Corey Dillon in 2006. Passing yards will increase when you’re throwing on 3rd and short because you don’t trust your running game. It will also spike when you Wes Welker as the master of YAC.
So he can produce without star receivers. In fact, his TD:INT ratio is pretty much the same now as it was before. The only difference is that the TDs were spread amongst numerous players, instead of just from Randy Moss.
Bam.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
You seem to be removing the issue at hand.
“Mr. Three and Out” O’Brien is a joke. He isn’t qualified to call a pop warner football game.
Yards and completions look great in table form like that. In the end, the games that tell the real story are the losses. You will almost always see that the 3 and outs were results of poor three down play calling schemes. Losses happen when the offense does not sustain some form of a drive to maintain field postion. Even 2 first downs will usually allow the punter to maintain control of field position.
O’Brien often fails to move the chains and the PATS forfeit field position as a result. He does not adjust his play calling for short yardage scenarios: i.e. use two plays to get 4 yards after a 1st and 6 gain. Nope. He’ll throw a bomb, or something stupid on 2nd down, and then it is absolutely a pass on 3rd down.
He has huge, double TE’s that will get a RB 2 yards virtually every time. And, on occassion, Brady can audible when the defense stacks that play. Nope. O’Brien will opt to pass most of the time.
For the past two weeks
O’Brien called a VERY good game! We ran it 24 times too.
So far so good for O’Brien.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
This was a thread about Moss
Not about O’Brien…
So how is talking about Moss removing the issue at hand ?
by UtopianAverage on Oct 6, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You should really lay off O'Brien a little...
Football Outsiders says the Pats are the #1 most efficient team overall;
Pats have #1 total offence; #1 passing offence; #3 rushing offence.
But more particularly, calling O’Brien “Mr. Three and Out” is unfair.
O’Brien’s nowhere near as bad as you’re saying, according to Football Outsider stats. Pats are fifth-best at average drive-length – every time that offence gets the ball, they’re better than all but Indy, dalls, Houston and Denver at moving it downfield. They’re second-best at scoring points-per-drive; better than all but the Colts. They’re second-best as scoring TDs-per-drive, again trumped slightly by Indy. The Pats are the best at not punting; they’re rated second in Drive Success Rate – as in overall offensive efficiency, only trumped again by the Colts.
Like it or not, that O’Brien offence is clicking better than anyone but Indianapolis.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Oct 6, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's this year, based on 4 games.
It is entirely possible that O’Brien has managed to learn and do better play calling than last year. But you’ll have to excuse a lot of us for wanting to see more long-term evidence.
Last year, the Pats were really bad in their 2nd-half splits at all those rankings – i.e. they did NOT sustain drives in the second halves.
They were also pretty bad about surrendering points-off-turnovers. I.E. they didn’t just commit turnovers. The other teams either scored immediately on the play or promptly due to short fields.
Really, last year’s offense was far more disappointing than the defense. Most of our losses can be blamed squarely on the offense last year.
I’ll wait a few more games before I am willing to give O’Brien credit for changing.
You clearly make great arguments w/ your stats.
And, I don’t deny them. I just feel that there are KEY possessions and KEY plays in every game [momentum series] where O’Brien exposes himself as highly predictable, scripted, and seemingly unable to adjust to on-the-field results.
The PATS have three superb TE’s. Tell me why Gronk and Crump are seeing 1 or 0 passes per game. It makes no sense. They lock onto Hernandez which is great. He gets a few catches, and then he disappears.
The weapons are plentiful. Three and outs should not happen. Brady can dink his way to a 1st down every series if they run quick routes, use the TE’s on delayed dink routes, and run behind the TE’s on audibles.
I simply don’t agree with any play call that isn’t designed within a three-play package to get a 1st down especially when your drive starts inside your own 30 yard line.
With Brady and the superb WR/TE group he has to throw to, moving the chains at least twice should be a given. It should be the goal.
Once you clear the 40 yard line, you can open up the offense a bit more. Even so, this offense must chew up time. It must keep the defense off the field more. It should set 1st downs as its top objective with short routes, use of all three TE’s, quick slot bullets with YAC objective, and runs behind the beef – all designed to gain 3+ yards expecting one to gain at least 4 yards.
Maybe...
I’ve been frustrated with O’Brien, too. Some of his playcalling infuriates me. But you said, and I quote:
"Mr. Three and Out" O’Brien is a joke. He isn’t qualified to call a pop warner football game.
Still sticking to that, in light of the stats?
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
okay
O’Brien exposes himself as highly predictable, scripted, and seemingly unable to adjust to on-the-field results.
Not true as in the last couple games. He, and mostly brady, distributed the ball VERY well. also called plenty of run plays, as we got over 100 yards rushing in both games.
The PATS have three superb TE’s. Tell me why Gronk and Crump are seeing 1 or 0 passes per game. It makes no sense. They lock onto Hernandez which is great. He gets a few catches, and then he disappears.
Are you serious? More than 50% of the time, they run a 2 TE, 3 TE formation. Also, Gronk and Herndo combine for more than 3 passes caught a game. Herndo gets more than 3 catches though most of the time.
Also, keep in mind they use them for BLOCKING for RUNNING plays as well. That sounds diverse no? Also, the second half of the dolphins, the pats had I think 2-3 series. And they mostly used those series to RUN THE BALL, in order to RUN OUT THE CLOCK.
Bill O’Brien was great in play-calling in that game, and during the bills.
The weapons are plentiful. Three and outs should not happen. Brady can dink his way to a 1st down every series if they run quick routes, use the TE’s on delayed dink routes, and run behind the TE’s on audibles.
3 and outs happen. sorry but they do. but to tell you something, all of that you stated there, brady has been doing quite well the past two games. and guess what? Bill O’B DESIGNED those plays for brady.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Winning and being a great QB...
are enough for me. I don’t need to see gaudy numbers to know how great Tom Brady is. Our defense is a work in progress, but that has nothing to do with Randy Moss. The Pats defense has to continue to improve if they are going to do anything in the playoffs, Randy Moss or no. But Brady is a good enough quarterback and he has enough weapons that he can continue to be great and win without Moss. I say this without taking a thing away from Randy Moss.
"If you know how to cheat, start now." - Earl Weaver
Uh...
he DID put up the numbers without the 2007 WR corps – he led the NFL in receiving yards in 2005 with 4100 yards without any 1000 yard WRs, and then threw for top-10 yardage of 3500 yards with Reche “bug-eyed idiot” Caldwell and Doug Gabriel as his top WRs in 2006.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
i think you meant to say Gaffney....Doug didn't do anything
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
Gaffney only signed on October 9
So he wasn’t even in the Pats this far through the 2006 season – week 4 or 5.
The fact that Gaffney came in so late into the season and performed really shows how good Brady is – the Pats signed a guy off the street over half of the way through the year (including training camp, etc) and made him productive.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
oh....you keep fighting those colts fans :P
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
an "elite statistical player"?
What does that even mean? 3 is the first and foremost statistic I can throw out there, 4 if you want to count the talent required in even getting to the big dance at all.
Keep the faith!
He was good enough to win Super Bowls because his defense then was good enough to win Super Bowls
He’s a better player now than he was in 2003 and 2004. The reason he hasn’t added to his “3” is because the defense isn’t as good. Defense wins championships. You know that.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I don't want to turn this into an anti-Brady or Brady v Manning type thing
so I will say that I have my doubts that Brady will be nearly as good without Moss as he was with Moss. I might be wrong. We’ll revisit this later.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I'm happy to take a "wait and see" approach
You may be right. But there were many times last season and this where I felt the Pats’ offense had become one-dimensional and predictable. I also saw many times when Brady seemed to force the ball to Moss when there were others open. The Patriot’s offense will evolve without Randy Moss, but I don’t think anyone knows how it will turn out.
"If you know how to cheat, start now." - Earl Weaver
That's why I think the W&S (wait & see) approach is the best
Whether you agree with the trade or not, it is consistent with the philosophy of an organization that has stayed at or near the top for most of the previous decade. Only time will tell if this works or not, but history has shown it has.
I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.
What?!
but we don’t have any proof that Brady can play as well as Brees as in NO without Moss.
You high? Look at Brady pre-2007, and that’s your proof. 2006 in particular – he threw the most yardage by an NFL QB that year, and he was doing it to Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel! Payton and the Saints built the roster trying to replicate the early-2000s Pats; it was the Patriots who actually moved away from their own blueprint when they went Moss-heavy.
The Pats using Brady in a Brees-like role is just reverting to type.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
they also have a offensive genius in Payton...our's went to Denver and KC
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
He will be activate.
Of course, I have no more expertise on the matter than anybody else, but you get what you pay for.
True wealth is a shelf full of unread books.
by Hometown Gyro on Oct 6, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
i think so...i also think Darrell Jenkins will be moved to active roster from PS
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
He's active - on the roster 53
He just hasn’t made it onto the game-day 45. Fletcher and Deaderick had their first activation onto the 45 last week; it wouldn’t surprise me if Price gets a shot soon, too.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
BBS is a moron and the colts punter think so too
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
It's sad
anything that can make him hold the “WE’RE #1!!!!” finger foam; he’ll jump at the opportunity. Disturbing to read.
I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.
He needs to be stopped. He's out of control.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
the colts punter called out BBS and his site...thats justice...now bbs and his bruised EGO closed the article...what a b**ach
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
LMAO
I loved this comment
Way to go, BBS, now you’re feuding with a Colts player. Is there anyone you aren’t able to offend with your staggeringly petty pronouncements?
You can’t have it both ways, Shoe. You can’t demand accountability from everyone else and then claim that since you’re just a blogger and a not a journalist that your opinions don’t count.
You art the worst kind of hypocrite. Now even the players on the team you process to enjoy hate you.
I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.
never heard of the guy...
but i read some of that thread. he seems like a typical control-freak
I haven't been on his site much, and reading ALL of those comments
it’s like… what the hell? Get your tail our of your ass, and ADMIT your wrong doings to the site! Be a freakin’ adult, and not a damn child!
I wonder what would happen if Peyton tweeted him…
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
He defends his article because of what his site is, a blog, and then closes the comments option for the members of that blog.
and the home of the... JETS!!!
www.ganggreennation.com
Straighten up and fly right.
Don't bloggers have some sort of power
where they can try and GET BBS off his high chair, and get someone else in? Probably not Im guessing.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
How about boycotting the site?
I know some they would want to talk about the colts, but boycotting would not be such a bad idea.
Maybe they can move in to another blog on sb nation. like ours. We can share stories on the front page, and posts. It doesn’t seem too bad. We’ll have A LOT of activity, but I don’t think it will be that bad.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
We have
for a while a lot of the SB people put up threads at Battle Red Blog (The Texans blog). Now a lot of us don’t comment there at all (Shake, Cass, me, pud, etc) and have boycotted hit, but since all BBS sees is his hits count rise, he doesn’t care that he’s lost some of his longtime regulars.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Damn...
so.. any real solutions besides boycotting? Besides trying to reason with BBS, as I am sure you all tried.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
they did...sports nations doesn't care
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
that freakin' blows.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
we're already hanging out in the Texans basement
we have a eternal thread in the BRB fanposts.
You Have been banned from Stampede Blue
"inciting readers to get me fired is a quick ticket to banning" - BBS
Comment that got me banned:
You can send your complaints to dhalprin123@gmail.com
Well good luck guys.
Damn…
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Man, that's brutal.
Splitters!!
As Mr. Sloan always says, there is no "I" in team, but there is an "I" in pie. And there's an "I" in meat pie. Anagram of meat is team... I don't know what he's talking about. --Shaun of the Dead
by JohnHannahRules on Oct 6, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
may I direct you to the link in my signature
and blez@sbnation.com to let his bosses know how you feel. Marima has therefore you all should too!
;-)
You Have been banned from Stampede Blue
"inciting readers to get me fired is a quick ticket to banning" - BBS
Comment that got me banned:
You can send your complaints to dhalprin123@gmail.com
I can't...
every time I go to try and use the emails here, it directs me to my Mac mail, which is in flux now…
I wish I could though.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
huh?
You Have been banned from Stampede Blue
"inciting readers to get me fired is a quick ticket to banning" - BBS
Comment that got me banned:
You can send your complaints to dhalprin123@gmail.com
Every time I open it up, it asks me for my password. I give it, but it keeps saying it's wrong.
I can’t email because of that…
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
get a different email address?
gmail is full of win
You Have been banned from Stampede Blue
"inciting readers to get me fired is a quick ticket to banning" - BBS
Comment that got me banned:
You can send your complaints to dhalprin123@gmail.com
I have used my yahoo account
but I don’t know if it worked really….
But I’ll try it again. Let me know if it works(if you could).
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
I just sent it.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
to my gmail?
I haven’t received it yet
You Have been banned from Stampede Blue
"inciting readers to get me fired is a quick ticket to banning" - BBS
Comment that got me banned:
You can send your complaints to dhalprin123@gmail.com
I sent from my yahoo account. Titled Big Blue Shoe.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
I sent it to the link you posted.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
the link I posted
is for the head NFL guy for SB Nation.
You Have been banned from Stampede Blue
"inciting readers to get me fired is a quick ticket to banning" - BBS
Comment that got me banned:
You can send your complaints to dhalprin123@gmail.com
Okay. I sent it to them then.
I hope it goes through, and I hope you guys get your site back.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
who's email add is that?
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
Hang on sloopy, sloopy hang on.. O H I O
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard
Your offense wasn’t doing much damage in the 1st half. Do you realize you guys only had 6 points in the 1st half? 2 field goals is cute but it doesn’t win you the game. Hell, you wouldn’t have even been in field goal range if it wasn’t for Henne’s 1st interception.
Having Davis and a safety on Moss definitely hurt the defense as other Patriots players were able to produce.
Who exactly was producing? Welker only got 70 yards receiving. And the next best thing was Brandon Tate with 4 catches for 39 yards. And you better not tell me Gronkowski was a major factor with his 1 catch for 4 yards. So we shut down Moss with no expense. It’s actually surprising because the Dolphins defense has struggled with tight ends in the past 2 years.
You act like this was last year when you guys played the Jets and Revis "shutdown" Moss while Welker is getting 15 receptions for 200 yards. That wasn’t the case here bruh. Btw Vonate Davis is going to be the next best thing at the cornerback position.
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
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Funny. Because that's all the yards we really needed from those guys to beat you.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
and if we take away those INTs and ST(with the ifs)
then our offense will be on the field more often, and those players will get more yards.
And you forget that our running game was extremely effective.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
How does taking away INTs
put your team on the field more often? that doesn’t make any sense. It was the INTs that gave your offense more possessions. But as we all know, your offense didn’t win ya’ll the game.
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
Not if you pick 6...
…or recover a blocked kick for a touchdown because the Dolphins offense gets the ball right back. Oh, and if the Patriots get the ball on the 12 yard line, that’s not really keeping the offense on the field.
None of those events occured in the 1st half
and you put up 2 field goals. But Rob Nikovich did you you 2 extra possessions with his INTs which weren’t in our redzone
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
Nink capitailized on those mistakes.
Henne had some to do with it, but Nink HAD to make an athletic play out of those. He READ the eyes of Henne, and got the INTs.
They weren’t luck, or “gift wrapped.”
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Bruh I never said they were gift wrapped, Nick made 2 great plays
my point is he gave you 2 extra possessions in the first half
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
But your saying he "gave" you.
I don’t necessarily think he gave them to us, as much as we saw it coming, and made a play. He DID give it to chung, but he didn’t give it to Nink.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
When I said "he" gave you
I was reffering to Nikovich as “he” giving your offense 2 extra possessions
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
Well here's were I say this:
If you happened to score, or punt, either way, we’ll have at least maybe 80 yards to go downfield. Hence, we would get more yardage in those situations, then if we are within 40 yards of your endzone.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
No
it’s funny because you needed a kick return TD, blocked punt, and a blocked field goal return for a TD. If the game relied on your offense alone, that wouldnt have gotten the job done. That was an embarrassing showing by the Dolphins ST.
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
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Phins offense only scored 14 points.
The Pats offense scored 20, and probably would have scored more if it had gotten those three extra possessions that were prevented by the return TDs. The score very well may have been 41-14 WITHOUT any of those returns. Let’s not be obnoxious revisionists……..
wow really?
It was the blocked punt that put your offense in our redzone to score. I you really think you wouldve put up 41 points without those returns then your delusional.
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
What the fuck are you talking about
who’s trolling, im just speaking the truth
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
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You "truth" is resulting of If's.
I’ll play the game:
1) The blocked punt: Who’s to say that if you made the punt, that we STILL wouldn’t go down the field and score anyways?
2) Blocked field goal: Who’s to say you would even have MADE that? It was a 50+ yard field goal! And even if you did, Who’s to say we wouldn’t respond with a field goal ourselves?
3) Kick return TD: Again, if you stopped us at the 20, who’s to say we still wouldn’t have scored?
The INTs had skill involved as well, except the Chung one.
You failed to perform on all 3 phases of the game, and got destroyed. Deal with it!
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Bruh I didn't take anything away from your ST performance
I’m just saying shit like that don’t happen everyday, so enjoy it while you can
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
No im not just talking about the kickoffs
im talking about that entire ST performance as a whole.But ya’ll deserve credit for exposing our ST
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
We can enjoy, but we DON'T expect it to happen again.
And don’t expect that if those things didn’t happen, and our offense went out, that it would be an automatic stop either.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
The only truth is 41-14.
And saying that covering Moss had no detraction from the defense completely ignores the 112 yards and a TD on 24 carries that our normally nonexistent running game produced.
Green-Ellis did a good job
but 76 yards is alright but it didnt “detract” our defense per say. You guys actually put up 142 and 2 TDs on the Bills. But regardless I’m refferring to Moss and his effect on the passing game. And he was shut out with really no “detraction”
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
Green-Ellis and Woodhead combined for 112 yards on the ground against the fins.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Moss running deep and dragging a CB and a safety away from the line of scrimmage...
…absolutely helps opens lanes for running backs like Danny Woodhead on the draw play.
Maybe they wouldn't have scored a single additional point.
My point stands – Pats offense scored 20, Phins offense scored 14. Take away everything else and the Pats still win, in your fictional football land.
I never said that
but I doubt it wouldve been the embarrassment it turned out to be
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
You said....
you needed a kick return TD, blocked punt, and a blocked field goal return for a TD. If the game relied on your offense alone, that wouldnt have gotten the job done.
You can’t take a single unit out of context like that and say it wouldn’t have gotten it done. The Phins offense only scored 14 points. The Pats offense really didn’t even get to play in the second half, but I’m willing to conservatively estimate that if they had, they could have managed at least a couple field goals, putting them over the 14 points the Phins offense scored, without the “assistance” of ST or D.
But that’s not the world that we live in. ST and D matter. This conversation is an exercise in futility.
umm
your taking me out of context.When I made that statment I was replyng to a guy that said thats all the offense it took to beat us, when in reality it was your ST that carried that game
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
thats all the offense it took to beat us
This is the reality though. You pointed out our offensive production:
Who exactly was producing? Welker only got 70 yards receiving. And the next best thing was Brandon Tate with 4 catches for 39 yards. And you better not tell me Gronkowski was a major factor with his 1 catch for 4 yards. So we shut down Moss with no expense. It’s actually surprising because the Dolphins defense has struggled with tight ends in the past 2 years.
And the reality is, BECAUSE OF THOSE SPECIAL TEAMS, the offense was HARDLY on the field. In the end, BECAUSE OF THOSE STs, we put up enough passing yards, and rushing yards, to stay ahead of you guys, and get a few points in the process.
Let me repeat that, we put up ENOUGH passing and rushing yards to beat you guys. We didn’t need to get more because we scored twice on . But we put up enough to beat you.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
If you added the 200 yards of Tate's kick returns to the offence...
It all looks a little bit more impressive.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
I can't do that.
Mainly because he has at least 20 yards to get automatically. Stats on KO returns are MUCH different than stats you get from receiving. I have to be a little fair…
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Did you just copy/paste this from the other thread?
Lrn2Troll moar.
What chance does the offense have to produce when 3 drives are taken away by our own ST. We were to busy eating you alive to play offense. The two times we needed to drive, we marched down the field at will and ate clock. Im shocked the TOP was that close considering how many times our ST put you right back on the field.
Sorry the offense...
…only got the ball twice in the second half before they started to run the ball because they didn’t want to run up the score? Oh, and they got touchdowns on both of those drives. Also, if it wasn’t the end of the half, the Pats might have scored a TD. They didn’t, but the fact is that the Patriots were driving towards the end zone.
How many times did you get the ball in the 1st half?
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
4.
One was a clear 3 and out that was stopped by the Dolphins defense.
One was stopped by a holding penalty that negated a 35 yard gain by Aaron Hernandez that would have put the Patriots on Dolphins 26 yard line.
One was stopped on your 5 yard line (settled for a field goal) because Cameron Wake is awesome and sacked Brady before Brady could look downfield. That had nothing to do with your secondary. It had to do with Wake moving the Patriots back to the 16 yard line and getting to Brady without being touched.
One was stopped (settled for a field goal) because the half ended. Again, not because of the secondary.
The Patriots were making progress on 3/4 of the drives. They got into the red zone on two of them.
The first half was not as close as the scoreboard indicated.
Just two plays swung the score significantly to keep it 7-6 in Miami’s favor. And these were mistakes by the Patriots so not the result of great Miami play.
If not for a holding call (on Light?), that looong Hernandez’ catch stands up and that drive almost certainly ends in points. The way they were moving it, a TD was likely.
If not for the PI call on McCourty on the 3rd down stop in the middle of the 2nd, the Dolphins would have been stopped on that drive much earlier, giving Brady not only better field position (than they got with the subsequent interception) but more importantly more time. So instead of settling for a field goal to end the half, the Patriots very easily could have had a TD.
Thats a minimum of 7 and likely 11 pts that swung on those two plays. Dolphins were lucky not to be down 17-7 at the half.
Umm
Cameron Wake beat Matt Light clean, which forced him to hold. That my friend is an result of good pass rush play
"And who are you to tell me how to conduct myself? Why don't you practice safe sex and go f@#! yourself." -Loso
"Randy Moss is still victimizing teams that passed on him in 98', and Dez Bryant will do the same." -Me
"2010 is Year of the Ginn" -Me
"If talk is cheap, then my silence is diamonds" -Lupe Fiasco
Loading Swag... ████████████████ 100% Complete
Indeed
That was a blitz. The NT ate the C; Dansby rushed up the middle and drew the Guard; the Tackle drew the DE one-on-one, and Cameron Wake was untouched. That’s just a good blitz.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
So essentially
He was your version of 2008 Plaxico?
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Michael Strahan
Let's hope Price can run FAST, LONG PASS ROUTES, and
the defense chooses to send a safety over the top. Otherwise, the PATS offense has just taken a huge step backwards losing Moss.
And, if you factor in O’Brien still being here, that lowers the PAT’s offensive output even further since Moss made up for some of O’Brien’s pathetic performance week in and week out.
This trade looks disasterous. Who gives a rat’s ass about a 3rd round pick next year at the expense of a hall-of-fame WR – and their one bonifide deep threat.
O'Brien
called a good offense the past two games.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
He's just calling the plays
it’s ultimately up to the players to execute them, no matter how uneventful they may be. As I’ve said in the other thread, the other WRs that are still there are loaded with talent. Now, the opportunity for these guys to bust out has arisen. Yes, it is faster than normal, but it is what it is.
When you aren’t relying one ONE BIG TARGET that you MUST GET THE BALL TO at least 3 times a game, (thus positioning yourself for INTs into double/triple coverage), it makes life easier. That was becoming apparent this year more than anything.
I will miss Moss, no doubt about that, but I honestly don’t think if this same offensive output I mentioned above continued, there would be success.
I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.
2001 Super Bowl Season
Can anyone name the Patriot receivers that year?
And Jermaine Wiggins
even Patrick pass and Kevin Faulk caught some balls in the backfield
I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.
2001 Super Bowl Season
No Randy Moss speed or size, yet we still won.
yeah. you had a good resourceful defense
you had one offensive touchdown in each game. Offense didn’t make you win the Super Bowl. Defense, Special Teams, a kicker and a lucky rule did.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
It was a lucky rule, a fortunate rule that never should have been there
it was the correct usage of the rule. Although, to me it always seemed that Tom had both hands on the ball at the instant where he fumbled, which negates the “tuck” motion.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
It was a rule, it was called properly except
they didn’t call the blow to Brady’s head on the play. That should have been a 15 yard penalty and a 1st down. I don’t think a flag should have been thrown but, I guess that’s me.
I don't think so. Homey don't play dat.
If they called a blow to head, it would be pretty ticky-tacky
it looked like Woodson grazed Brady’s helmet while moving his hands down. By the rule, probably a call, but w/e.
I don’t disagree that it was a rule. I just have always thought that at the instant Brady lost the ball, he had just got both hands back on it, ending the “tucking” motion.
Anyway, this tuck rule conversation is bringing up bad memories, haunting memories.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Actually he hit him hard from behind, and not the strip sack, but...
..the blow into the head, when Brady releases the ball.
But then again: Vrabel blow Warner’s helmet in the SB when Mr. Warner threw his INT to Ty Law.:) And the “tuck rule” was enough anyway :D
by frogfromthemud on Oct 6, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
if there is anything to consolate
is that the following season the pats were screwed over facing the raiders as well. Can’t remember EXACTLY what, but I know the pats got screwed over when facing the raiders during the brady era.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
I don't remember any bad calls in that gamre
The Raiders won 27-20, were up 24-6, and the 2 Pats TDs came on a int-return by Bruschi and a kick off return. I remember Dieon Branch dropping a long pass in the first half, but nothing that unforgettable.
The Raiders dominated that game, even sacked Brady four times.
Just to remember just how long ago it was that the Raiders were this good…. I have that game recorded on VHS.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Don't say that...
Al Davis will declare that DVDs are the reason for the decline of the Raiders and try to draft VCRs in the first round.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Oct 6, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Do they have good 40 times?
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
These players, a lot of other people didn't believe in them, but they believe in themselves. And that is all that matters."- Bill Belichick
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
Maybe if JaMarcus Russell throws them...
Guy has arm-strength. Nothing else…. but plenty of arm strength.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
And do you remember how many offensive points we scored in the playoffs that year?
16 vs the raiders
17 vs the steelers
13 vs the rams
Defense and special teams is what won it
The offense did what it needed to do to win
And Brady still had to drive them down the field to put them in a position to score, without turning the ball over to lose it. A total TEAM effort, coaching included.
Keep the faith!
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