Benjarvus Green-Ellis and the RB situation
by VA dan on Mar 11, 2010 9:20 AM EST
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Just throwing some thoughts together on this since we just re-upped with Faulk. Anyone have any thoughts what our RB situation will be going into 2010? I really hope Benji gets some playing time, I liked what I saw in '08 and the the other limited carries he had last year and in the preseason. I assume that Taylor and/or Morris won't be back. I would love to see Le'ron Mclean in a pats uniform, wouldn't mind trading a pick for it (2nd round? we have three of them).
I see only two tenative line ups now for 2010:
1. Maroney
2. (Free Agent pick up)
3. Faulk
4. Ellis-Green
or
1. Maroney
2. Faulk
3. Ellis-Green
4. Sixth or Seventh round pick
So these are my thoughts, would love to hear yours--specifically on BGE's future...
The views expressed in these FanPosts are not necessarily those of the writers or SBNation.
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I think somehow, somewhere we'll grab a fullback.
Morris/BJGE were light for the duty, and we need a better short yardage option (in the 240 -260 lb range).
That may be impact the halfback number.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Mar 11, 2010 10:40 AM EST reply actions
TEBOW
sorry I had to say it. I don’t believe it, but…..well…..it could actually work.
No reason to trade a 2nd round pick for McClain, when you could grab him for a 4th round pick or grab a very similar back in the 4th or 5th round.
I would agree Morris or Taylor is likely cut, but not both. At this point in his career, Taylor is a great ‘back breaker’ style back. The guy who goes in during the 4th Q and runs through the D after the first two backs in the rotation have softened them up.
Maroney (Tiki Barber ball control school please) and BJGE or a draft pick could do this.
There's no reason to suggest Tebow can run-block
and a bunch of reasons to suggest he can’t. He’s had an entire high school/college career as a run-first QB, and his style suggests he’s a dodger-and-weaver rather than a big-banging FB-type guy. I’m not sure that the payoff is there to take the ball off Tebow and suddenly start making him relish contact when his entire football career up to this point was to avoid hitting LBs and linemen.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Mar 11, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
By no means do I endorse such a move
I do find it interesting how many people actually engage in a convo about a QB converting to FB.
I will disagree regarding the avoiding contact deal though – Teboner with the ball was very much a down hill runner.
That doesn’t mean he’d be physical enough in the blocking game, or that he’d even be as physical vs NFL lineman and lbs (just ask Lomo) just noting that he wasn’t avoiding contact on his runs at UF.
Tebow in the 4th round, yes. before that no. So for NE – no.
I'm not sure about FB, but people talk about him as an H-back prospect
The Pats have experimented with an H-back before in 4th round draft pick Garrett Mills – he came in as a TE, but practiced more at FB, so I’d say on the balance of it he was a ‘true’ H-back. But in saying that, Mills didn’t make the team. So…
If the Pats wanted a TE, they’ll draft a decent blocking TE with a lot of college blocking experience instead of an ex-QB who’s never really blocked in his life.
If they want a FB, they’ll probably snag a ‘real’ FB – more pounds, less height, a grind-it-out guy to compliment the running backs. If they wanted a mobile FB who can catch a few passes and run a few yards, they’ve already got two of them in BJGE and Sammy Morris.
If they want a QB, they’ll go for one who has an NFL arm and can read a D. They’ve already got two tweener running-QBs in Stanback and Edelman; the fact that both of those guys are WRs first, QBs second suggests they’re not interested in a Wildcat/running-QB kind of guy. So they’d be taking Tebow as an ‘actual’ QB, yet his arm isn’t good enough (Edelman and Stanback’s arms aren’t good enough either). And his D-reading skills are questionable, given he was a run-first QB who tucked it in and ran it instead of trying to find holes in the pass defence.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Mar 11, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Draft prospect Dorin Dickerson TE could work as a WR/HB
He has a couple years of TE blocking experience at the Jr level, and has good hands and 4.4 speed. He would be a nice pick with their 4th rounder IMO.
I'm expecting Taylor to be back.
Or at least at camp.
He’s contracted for next year and has spoken very clearly about his desire to make up for last year’s ‘lost season’.
I don’t think Morris will be back.
Like SMP, I wouldn’t mind seeing them acquire a true fullback (i.e. a Mack Strong / Heath Evans type).
ESPECIALLY if they don’t shore up the TE situation. A lot will depend on what they do there – which is also affected by whether they pick up a flanker at WR.
If they don’t upgrade at WR and they get a mostly-pass catching TE, then they will probably want a bigger blocking FB. If they do upgrade at flanker, and then go for cheaper, blocking-first TEs, then they could forgo having a true fullback again (like they did last year). I hope not. I really like the versatility that a good fullback provides for all facets of the game. I also think that a fullback washes out the sort of timing issues that Maroney and the OL had early last year, making both look a lot better.
Isn't it more about philosophy on O then talent though?
I’d love a quality FB on the roster – I’d also love a offensive game plan that used a FB in a larger percentage of plays.
Similarly at TE – if you aren’t sending them out in routes, then you don’t need to spend too much or too high a pick on the position.
I think Graham and Watson prove that out don’t they.
I wonder if Watson was a hangover from Charlie Weiss days
Weiss ran a lot of screens and slants, which is a system where you can get a big, quick, strong TE involved a lot, either opening holes for shifty underneath receivers, or catching the ball himself. Weiss left the building, and the Pats had Watson on the books for 6 years. It wasn’t a bad deal enough to cut him, but they weren’t going to use him as often as a Weiss-penned O-scheme would’ve done.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Mar 11, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Miss Weiss
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Mar 11, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
So Ryan Mathews would look like another Maroney when they never call run plays in the second half?
Meh. The Pats are a pass-first team for as long as they have Brady, Moss and Welker, and you don’t need to burn expensive first-rounders on RBs in a pass-first team. The Saints won the Superbowl with a strong rushing attack built from an UFA, a retread FA, and a pass-catching guy over the Colts, who had two first-round RBs.
It might not be pretty, but that UFA + retread + drafted RB worked better than Brown + Addai.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Mar 11, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
agree
if we are to draft a rb…do it in the 4th round to the 7th round…we are a pass team first. rather draft a wr early in the draft than a rb
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I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.....159 mph is my top speed..will top that this spring
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(formerly mathew.40)
BJGE is that level of RB, even tho he went undrafted
so why waste a pick on a guy we already have, if they’re not going to use him effectively. I say just load up on OLB/DE types and WRs, a couple TEs, and be done and be better.
The Pats can get a top RB next season
if they plan on using one properly, providing better blocking scemes, etc. , maybe by adding a FB, or using extra linemen in the role. Without great blocking, why even use run plays.
We're a pass team because the running game is inconsistent as hell
Get someone back there who can get at least 2 yards every carry and stay healthy while at the same time be young enough for the future and smart enough to learn from Taylor and Faulk and you could have something amazing.
The Pats are a pass-team because they have one of the best QBs of all-time
I’m not saying they shouldn’t draft HBs, or get good ones. I’m just saying that you’d probably have more success out of using that first-round pick somewhere else. If all you need is “at least 2 yards every carry and stay healthy while at the same time be young enough for the future and smart enough” you can do that with a 5th rounder, not a first.
In the meantime, you could use that first-rounder to upgrade the D-line or pass-rush or give Mr Brady a brand new receiver to play with. With all due respect to Ryan Matthews, who might be fantastic, I’d still wager that Tom Brady will get more yardage and TDs and clutch third-down plays, etc, with a good WR battery than he will with a good HB.
As long as Tom Brady is behind centre, the Pats are a pass-first team. That’s a good thing, not a bad one – the rules favour pass-first teams. It’s Polian’s fault if you’re unimpressed with that, but if you want to win Superbowls, you need a guy like Brees or Manning or Brady or Roethlisberger.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Mar 12, 2010 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
hey
this is an American site…its center not centre!!!!!
:P
Non Sibi Sed Patriae.
I love my ZX-6r Kawasaki.....159 mph is my top speed..will top that this spring
I bleed Scarlet and Grey...A Buckeye for Life
(formerly mathew.40)
Humour him....
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Mar 12, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Pats have been a passing offense, Pats NEED to be a balanced offense
Brady, Moss and Welker are great – but so what? So were Marino and the Marks brothers. Not a lot of hardware in these sets.
Montana, Rice and and a guy named Roger Craig.
Aikman, Irvin and Emmit.
You can say whatever you want about the passing game and who’s in it, but without balance from the running game, you aren’t going to win too consistently. You don’t sustain long term success being one dimensional.
You have Maroney, Morris, Taylor and Faulk all for another year. Stick with that. But use them more effectively, more consistently. There is nothing in the draft of FA market that’s going to be a end all solution, so don’t over pay for it.
End of the day for the Pats to be a better team, they need to balance out the EFFECTIVENESS of their offense. I don’t care how many plays they run or avg yards per rush – those are smoke screen stats. Consider:
2009 Pats rushing stats
10th avg ypc
20th ttl rushing yrds
20th yrds/game
30th rushing tds
Even Mike Vrabel can’t catch a TD when the defense knows they can drop back LBs because you can’t or won’t shove the ball down their throats.
Finally I submit when you run the ball more effectively, your offense is more physical, the OL love that, feed off it – the defense then feeds off it. The defense also gets more rest on the side lines. It helps the entire team.
Pats need to break the QB/passing addiction and get back to what wins games.
I agree
I think the same O-line injuries may have limited the running game as well. If the guy isn’t moving well, pass blocking is easier. Run blocking requires movement, and I would think it is harder with injuries.
Perhaps JohnHannahRules would want to weigh in on this one.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Mar 12, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
*Note*
I was using ESPN stats for that last posts, was just on NFL.com and there are some discrepancies that I don’t have time to look into right now.
Continuing your point though, I think the amount of 2 TE sets also speaks to issues with the Oline. Whether it was injuries or ineffectiveness, I wouldn’t be shocked to see talent on the Oline addressed in the early parts of the draft either.
I’d prefer front 7 with the 1st to picks, but I wouldn’t be too shocked or disappointed with Oline help.
I mean...
…here are the ESPN stats. Our running game was pretty good. We just had bad offensive play calling so it appeared worse than it actually was.
by Richard Hill on Mar 13, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Where are you getting these stats?
We were 12th in total rushing yards and, therefore, yards/game.
We were 7th in rushing TDs
And we were tied for 19th in average YPC
by Richard Hill on Mar 13, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
Those were in Pre-Polian rule-change days, though...
Whether it’s good or bad, the NFL is a passing league now. D-backs can’t mug receivers like they used to, so WRs are king.
“You can say whatever you want about the passing game and who’s in it, but without balance from the running game, you aren’t going to win too consistently. You don’t sustain long term success being one dimensional.” The Colts have been consistently great in the last few seasons, and have been as low as 32nd in rushing yardage even in playoff appearing seasons. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have balance, but you can have some success with no-run teams.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Mar 13, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yes but...
the Colts are pass-first, as are the Saints, but they have defenses that are well-designed at taking the ball away and speedy. They compensate on the other side(which means I agree with the idea that a good defense offsets a mediocre offense). Also, the offenses are quicker than the Patriots. It also helps immensely that there’s been stability on the offensive lines for the main passing teams, like the Saints, Pats and Colts.
I’m not as much worried about our passing offense and I know it can carry the load if need be. I’m worried about the short yardage situations. Last year, we lacked a real short yardage play beyond a rare WR screen or a running back dump off. Part of that is because we don’t trust the running backs to get 3 yards. That’s a product of the O-Line and the backs and honestly the O-Line isn’t that bad. It also didn’t help that our playcalling was a bit predictable at times. I hope O’Brien gets better.
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