2010 New England Patriots Draft Review: Part II
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Hey Pats Pulpit, we're ready to go with part 2 of the Patriots draft review. You can find Part 1 here. And now, for the rest of the review:
6. What was the Patriots best trade?
This one is really a no-brainer. The best trade the Patriots made was when they traded the 89th pick in the third round to the Carolina Panthers for their second round pick in 2011. While the Patriots were reportedly prepared to take Everson Griffen, this trade is a great value trade, and gives the Patriots four picks in the first two rounds next year. Additionally, you could argue that it was three trade-downs in the first and second rounds that netted the Patriots the 89th and 90th selections, thereby allowing them to convert one of those picks into a second rounder. While the Patriots have received some scrutiny for consistently moving down and moving picks into future years, I still love the strategy.
In fact, the trade discussed above was the only trade the Patriots made where they moved picks into 2011. The rest of the trades had the Patriots moving around the board, whether it be up or down. It seems as if the Patriots still got the top players on their board, despite all of the shuffling around.
7. How effective were the Patriots at filling their needs?
They were above average. They were good, but not great. While the Patriots addressed the tight end, outside linebacker, and wide receiver spots in the first three rounds, they failed to address the defensive line or running back positions. You could also argue that two of their picks, Devin McCourty and Brandon Spikes, did not feel big needs. However, those two picks were also two of my favorite picks. The main quibble I had with the Patriots was passing up good defensive line prospects in the fourth and fifth rounds, such as Al Woods and Arthur Jones. However, they did pick up Brandon Deaderick and Kade Weston in the 7th. If one of those guys pans out, the Patriots will have filled most of their needs (with the exception being running back. Whether or not you are on the back-by-committee bandwagon, not a single running back is signed past this season for the Pats).
Rest of the questions/answers after the jump.
8. Who is one sleeper pick that could have an impact for the Patriots in 2010 or beyond?
The obvious choice would be tight end Aaron Hernandez, who was picked in the fourth round out of Florida. For the purpose of picking a real sleeper, I'm going to cast Hernandez aside for now, and look at two guys; center Ted Larsen out of N.C. State, and defensive end Brandon Deaderick out of Alabama. Larsen was a former defensive tackle, who is surprisingly athletic, and was great value for the Patriots with their compensatory pick in the sixth round.
While Larsen could develop into the future starter at center, I'm going with Brandon Deaderick out of Alabama as my real sleeper pick. I had a fourth round grade on Deaderick, who played the defensive end spot in the 3-4 under Nick Saban at Alabama. Deaderick consistently showed how dominant he could be against the run, and that he could hold up and push back against double teams. He even flashes some ability to get to the quarterback. He also has the prototypical length (6-4) and weight (310) that the Patriots look for in their defensive ends.
9. Did the Patriots pick up any potential gems via rookie free agents?
The Patriots ended up signing six rookie free agents, and there are a few that I think could compete in camp. Pass rushing outside linebacker Dane Fletcher is the one everyone has their eyes on. While he doesn't have the prototypical length that Bill Belichick looks for in his outside linebackers, he has a high motor, and had great sack production at Montana State. He could be a fan favorite at training camp.
Another rookie free agent to look at: Bryan Anderson out of Central Michigan. While Anderson only runs a 4.58, he has great size, at 6-5, 215 lbs. He had great production in college, netting 290 receptions, over 3600 yards, and 28 touchdowns on his career. With the Patriots looking for some height at receiver, Anderson should be a welcome addition.
A couple of more names for you:
Pat Paschall, RB, North Dakota State: While he ran a 4.69 40 yard dash, he was the leading rusher in all of FCS last season. Patient runner with good balance, should be a practice squad candidate.
Sergio Brown, S, Notre Dame: Good size, ran 4.45 40 yard dash. Questionable instincts. Practice squad candidate.
Ross Ventrone, S, Villanova: The brother of former Patriots' safety Ray Ventrone, who was a fan favorite. If he plays with his brother's motor and intensity, you can't count him out.
Kyle Love, DL, Mississippi State: 6-1, 315 lbs DT who will have a tough time cracking the Patriots' crowded defensive line.
10. What is a fair overall grade for the Patriots' 2010 draft?
While it's tough to hand out a "grade" for a draft that happened just this past weekend, I think the Patriots did a really solid job overall. Devin McCourty, the teams first round pick, probably won't start his rookie year, but should contribute on special teams, he has great intangibles, and should become the team's #1 down the road. Tight end Rob Gronkowski filled a major need for the Patriots. If his back is healthy, he should come in and start day one, and could be that all-around tight end threat the Patriots have been missing. Jermaine Cunningham fits the bill at outside linebacker for the Patriots, while time will tell on this pick, it certainly fills a need. Brandon Spikes is a big-time player, and could start day one for the Patriots at inside linebacker. Taylor Price and Aaron Hernandez are another two weapons to develop for quarterback Tom Brady. Zoltan Mesko should come in as the punter day one. Ted Larsen and Thomas Welch add some offensive line depth, and have a chance to develop. Brandon Deaderick and Kade Weston are prototype 3-4 defensive ends, and may have a chance. Zac Robinson is a spread QB with some athleticism and potential to be the Pats' #3.
When all is said and done, it looks like the Patriots really chose for value, picking up a lot of good players at spots they might not have expected them to fall to. More importantly, the Patriots, while addressing needs, showed that they want to get back to their more physical style of play to their team, particularly with their selections of Rob Gronkowski, Jermaine Cunningham, and Brandon Spikes. Overall draft grade: A-
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I'd love to know
I’d love to know if the Pats even considered packaging draft selections to move up in the draft. We can sit back forever and analyze the 5 or 10 selections they could have chosen after each pick they made, but we can never fully know what could have been if they they made a made a significant effort to move up.
I personally believe the posibilities were endless if they were willing to pay a small fortune (not insinuating they should have). I’d be curious to know what the top five 1st round teams were demanding for their selecting positions. Then the next five….. and so on.
Somehow, I have this theory (or thought) in my head that Belichick would never use a top five pick even if he had it secured. While the Raiders seemed to do quite well in this year’s draft, The possibility of their rookie class having playoff implications is remote. As result, I believe they still stand a huge chance of finishing poorly thus forking over a top 5 or 10 overall pick to the Pats in 2011.
My money is on the Pats looking at all the various values that pick could bring shy of actually using it. We’ll see.
I think the Patriots were willing to upgrade only a few positions in the first round:
CB and ILB. That’s it.
If McClain dropped to the top 15, I can see the Patriots making a move to try and take him, due to Belichick’s familiarity with Saban. If not, there’s Spikes (similar familiarity with Meyer) in the 2nd round.
If Joe Haden dropped to the top 15, I can see the Patriots trying to grab him, because of Urban Meyer and the fact that he’s the best CB in the draft. If not, take McCourty.
If not, then trade down.
by Richard Hill on Apr 27, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I personally think that Haden is overrated.
but that’s me.
I'm also a Raider Fan dammit!!! RAIDER NATION!!!!
McClain/Draft Thoughts
I think you’re spot on with the McClain idea, I really think that was a dream scenario that instantly gave us the Best ILB Combo out of all the 3-4s. (We’re still up there with Spikes too though : ))
I really think the decision on not taking an RB hinged on the fact that we don’t really have the roster space for another RB unless it’s a signficant upgrade. Maybe if Matthews or Best slipped to us at the right spot. It wasn’t the most pressing need this year……Next year is a completely different story on that front!!!
I give the draft an A-, would’ve loved to snag a more decorated pass rusher and also thought Everson Griffin would’ve been a huge value pick in the 3rd. The general public doesn’t like the draft from what I could gauge, but the more enlightened fans are all for it. Overall success!!!! The worst part of it was the Fins, Jets, and Ravens also had good drafts.
They Pats have used top-10, top-15 picks before under Belichick
DE Richard Seymour at 6th overall with their own pick in 2001. They moved up the draft board via trade to select Ty Warren at 13th overall in 2002. They moved down the board a little and still took Jerod Mayo at 10th overall in 2008.
In other words, Belichick will draft guys with top picks; he’ll even move up the board to get high picks, and he’ll move down the board and still take high picks – they just have to be the right kind of player. If he’d had a top-5 pick this year, I could imagine him taking Ndamukong Suh – it’s a very Seymour-ish pick, and the value is there long-term. Similarly, I could imagine him using a top-5 pick (if he gets one) on DE Cameron Heyward in 2011 if everything pans out.
Belichick has also drafted players with very high-level picks elsewhere; he took a Safety (yes, Safety!) second-overall in the 1991 draft when he was at the Browns as HC. He also took a 9th overall Running Back in 1992, a 9th overall Cornerback in 1994, a Center (yes, Center!) at 14th overall in 1993.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 27, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
You are correct and I already knew that.
I like to consider myself a realist and one who strives to be a “student of the game”….. BUT, all too often, the rabid fan in me just wins out. As result I can over-state thoughts I feel strong about like any other fan.
My point was to say BB trades down so frequently it seems to be his primary option. The fan in me considers that rather frutrating no matter how strong the other arguments can be.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I expect a big difference in 2011 if there's a rookie salary cap in place
Suddenly players will be paid according to their gifts rather than their draft slots. So Eric Berry, as the best player in the draft, will actually be taken first, because the team that takes him doesn’t need to worry about dropping $60M guaranteed on him solely because he’s the first guy taken. That means two things:
a) players will get taken where they deserve to be taken, not solely because they’re a QB or OT; and
b) that theres not the financial incentive to drop right out of the top-5, top-10, top-20. Ndamukong Suh is a fine player, but is he $5M better than Gerald McCoy? Is he $20M better than Tyson Alualu? Is he $30M better than Jared Odrick? If all those pay rates were closer together, teams would have more interest in going up to get Suh or McCoy rather than save 50% of his pay and take a guy who is only 20% less effective.
In other words, if there’s a rookie salary cap, and players were all paid a more similar amount, Hoodie would most likely revert to his 1990s drafting scheme and be happy with players in the top-10. Safeties at 2nd overall? With a rookie pay scale, that’s far, far more likely.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Bill's buzzword is value.
Is the player worth what you’d end up paying him for the spot. If Bill were sitting at #5 and a player he wanted (would fit the scheme, yada yada) that had #5 value were available he would take him. If he looked around and thought that he could get that same player at #7, sure he would drop (and pick up an additional draft pick as well – maybe a Julian Edelman). If he were sitting at #10, and there was a #7 value on the board that fit the team and need, he would definitely call about moving up. If he could do it without selling out the rest of the draft, I’m sure he would.
This draft was definitely about filling holes and adding depth. The defense has been a youth movement for three consecutive years. The offense has just started getting younger the last two. Getting rid of draft picks to move up would have made sense if we were just one or two guys away from being set. We weren’t.
Our defense was spotty last year. D-Line, OLB, and quality CB’s were a need.
Our offense struggled. #3 and #4 receivers are yet to be defined. RB was a little above average, but not a point of strength. Tommy struggled, and the O-line was held together with duct tape. Kaczur, Light, and Neal have all seen better days.
Because of the scheme the Pats can win without standouts at every skill position. They are going to struggle in the playoffs, though. 2007 was the last hurrah of the old guard, and we’ve been getting younger since. If some of these guys end up making the team, I think we’ll have fewer holes to patch next year. If that happens, Bill will be more likely to use the draft picks he has with the caveat that the value still has to be there.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Apr 28, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure if it's just an oversight...
But you said:
Whether or not you are on the back-by-committee bandwagon, not a single running back is signed past this season for the Pats
And later mention the UFA pickup:
Pat Paschall, RB, North Dakota State: While he ran a 4.69 40 yard dash, he was the leading rusher in all of FCS last season. Patient runner with good balance, should be a practice squad candidate.
He’s one! Might not have the best shot to break into the current Pats RBBC, but I could see him becoming a fan favourite just because he’s a young RB in camp.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
No I actually realized that
I just don’t see how he makes the roster, unless he shows significantly more than BJGE. Definitely practice squad material though.
by Greg Knopping on Apr 27, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be surprised if he DIDN'T make the practice squad
Unless they pick up another young-ish free agent in the next few weeks (has to be under various practice squad eligibility levels, etc), he’d be a shoe-in to the practice squad. Given the injury history of Morris and Taylor, and the fact those two and Faulk are old and thus injury prone, I don’t see Hoodie going into the season without a guy on the practice squad who can potentially come in if one of the oldies goes on IR.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 27, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a good point
But I think you mean WHEN one of the oldies goes to IR haha. But in all seriousness, like you said, I would expect the Patriots to bring in another back in the coming weeks, at least for some training camp competition.
But if we’re relying on BenJarvus Green-Ellis and Pat Paschall as our running backs in 2010, we’ve got some problems.
by Greg Knopping on Apr 27, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Free Agent Signings
Pats missed a big one that I thought they would get; TE Colin Peek (Alabama) played in a
run based offense showed good downfield blocking skills and held on to the ones they threw his way. Atlanta picked him up.
Hoodie would know all about the guy, given he's from Alabama
Nick Saban would’ve given Hoodie all he needs to know about the guy. My guess is that Belichick really thought he’d filled his slots of blocking TEs – he’s praised Gronkowski’s ability as a blocker and already has Alge Crumpler – and he went after a big, pass-catching unit later down in Aaron Hernandez.
Hoodie also didn’t look at taking Sicko with a 7th, either, so I guess he’s particularly happy with the Gronk draft.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 27, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And they've got two UFA TEs on the roster already
Robbie Agnone and Rob Myers, both of whom have been in the system for longer.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 27, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they have enough TEs
After signing Crumpler and drafting 2, there’s little point in signing another.
Oh, if a man tried to take his time on earth, and prove before he died
What one man's life could be worth--oh, I wonder what would happen to this world.
by LegendaryTadpole on Apr 27, 2010 7:58 PM EDT reply actions
Oops, meant to reply to BEAR73
Oh, if a man tried to take his time on earth, and prove before he died
What one man's life could be worth--oh, I wonder what would happen to this world.
by LegendaryTadpole on Apr 27, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know what's more shocking about this...
The fact that it’s disgustingly early, or the predictions (like, who is going to win the Super Bowl) necessary to even embark on the endeavor.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/andrew_perloff/04/27/2011.mock.draft/index.html
I don't know which is more disgusting
The fact that this draft has actually been written, or that he has the Patriots picking at 21, before the Texans and 49ers. Seriously? Did he flip a coin to determine the records?
Oh, if a man tried to take his time on earth, and prove before he died
What one man's life could be worth--oh, I wonder what would happen to this world.
by LegendaryTadpole on Apr 27, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Horrible Column
Locker as the 2nd QB to Mallet?
Ingram going 25th?
Pats picking at 21????
Who is this douche????
What's the most important position to draft?
The game of football is probably the truest form of TEAM sport there is. That’s why I love it (seeing bodies smash into each other is kinda cool too…. LOL).
Every player on an offense or defense is totally interdependent on one another moreso than any other sport. When I watch other sports…. we’ll say the NBA, it’s common for one player to take control of a game and single-handedly make a substantial difference (ala Kobe or LeBron). Not so for the NFL!
A running back is completely dependent on an offensive line, the QB on the receivers, The cover guys on the pass rush, and the line backers on the nose tackle….AND…. for each of these the same is true VISE VERSA. I’m sure there are a thousand other “interdependent scenarios” but if you’re a football fan, you get the drift.
So, the question I pose is: When it comes to building a team foundation, Where do you start? Is there a starting spot at all? I know it’s a “chicken or the egg” question and no one answer exists….. But these arguments we’re having comes down to this very question rather frequently. Here’s my two cents:
On offense, I’ll state the obvious and say QB…… And I’m willing to go out on a limb for the defense and say the COVER GUYS! Here’s my argument regarding the defense:
Teams that have average, or below average cover guys have to center their attention primarily on coverage schemes throwing in an occasional blitz package. I find the Pats generally take this approach when going against a reliable (or better) QB. Teams with great CBs don’t have to do that nearly as much. They’re freer to consider “how many guys are we going to cram into the box on this down?” That’s a big differense in defensive philosophy! I believe a defensive coordinator’s ability to even consider that option routinely comes down to the trust he has in his cover guys and whether or not they need help.
It’s painful to admit this but the Jets cover-guys were SO GOOD, their coaches had the confidence to put a target on the opposing QB and go after him routinely. Yeah, they got burned once in a while but overall they did so with much success. They didn’t make it all the way to the AFC championship on the strength of Sanchez and the “wildcat” folks!
Any other thoughts?
I don't think anyone can say with certainty...
…that “Position X is the reason why Position Y is successful.” As you said yourself, each position helps the other. It’s a team sport and every player has its part.
It’s also important to note that each position needs a certain piece to fill the role. A player who doesn’t fit the role can’t be expected to step in and succeed. That’s why Joey Galloway was a miserable experience and that’s why Torry Holt should be much more productive- the team needs the right piece at the right position.
As of right now, the defense especially, there are positions that are filled by multiple players. That could be viewed as two half circles filling a circle position (like Mike Wright and Jarvis Green filling the Richard Seymour position). The ideal would be for a team to have a couple circle players to step into the starting role and be dominant. However, the ideal is far from the actual.
This past draft, the Patriots passed over many players that a lot of fans wanted us to grab. Let’s call Jared Odrick a triangle. While sometimes the triangle may be able to fill in the circle, it can never fill the role completely. Instead of taking the triangle and trying to fill the remaining holes with role players, the Patriots have opted to continue with their two half circle players. While maybe the triangle surpasses the individual semi-circles, the two semi-circles provide a much more rounded player than the triangle combined with any other player.
Enter Devin McCourty. The Patriots want a corner who can defend the pass (check). They want one who can stop the run (check). They want a team player who can step into a special teams role (check). McCourty is a circle player filling a circle role.
I think that we filled our draft with circle (McCourty, Gronkowski, Cunningham, Mesko, Price) or half circle players (Spikes) to fit our team. While there were other players (Gresham, Misi, Golden Tate, Sean Lee), I think they were either triangles or were circles in already filled holes. Maybe the circles are a little smaller than the triangles for now. Down the road, look for the circles to grow into the role that the triangle players never could fill.
by Richard Hill on Apr 28, 2010 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions
That said...
…a mediocre secondary can be made into superstars with an elite front 7 forcing the opposing team into making mistakes. I don’t think the opposite could be said. A great secondary will definitely make the front 7 better, but I don’t think they’ll make them stars.
In the 3-4 defensive order of importance (in my opinion):
1) NT: Frees up the DEs
2) DEs: Plugs up the rest of the offensive line
3) ILBs: They catch any spillover from the offensive line and are the most versatile players on the field.
4) OLBs: If the ILBs can take control of the middle of the field, if the D-Line can occupy the O-Line, then nothing stops the OLBs from wreaking havoc on the quarterback.
5) CBs: When the above 4 positions are doing their job, the quarterback will be forced into bad throws where the CBs will capitalize.
6) Ss: Clean up crew.
I think an elite Revis style cornerback makes Revis look good. An elite Wilfork makes an Ellis Hobbes the 3rd look good.
I also think that a Charles Woodson style cornerback makes the defense much better. But that type of player is scarce.
by Richard Hill on Apr 28, 2010 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I still hold my point
One reason I like this topic is that there’s no real WRONG answers. Your list above makes perfect sense.
I think it’s fair to say the league transitioning to a “pass-happy” offensive mindset. While most coaches (even the great ones), approach tough football games saying “We’re going to establish the run”. I’m finding more and more that’s downright bull$hit. I don’t know why they don’t come right out and say point blank…. “Our plan is to sling the ball all over the field because that’s what we do best dammit!” It’s almost as if being honest would be “politically incorrect”. What’s the deal?
Anyway, back to my point…. As these powerhouse passing attacks evolve, it’s clear the great defensive teams are having to primarily stop the passing attack first, and prepare themselves for the occasional draw or screen. When facing this kind of firepower, the defensive coach is faced with one ongoing challenge….. Do I press the QB? or do I press the receivers? Grant it, when you do one, you’re (in a sense) automatically doing the other, but atheletes respond in varied ways to having defenders actually in their face.
More than ever, just one play could mean a quick 6…. As result, defenses have to protect the deep routes first, and respond as soon as you possible to anything else. Having strong coverage enables a coordinator to express a bit more freedom with his linebackers. If the cover guys suck, the defense is almost obligated to use linebackers to drop back into coverage the lion’s share of the time. The freedom to blitz is almost non-existent. That inflexibility can cripple a defense.
When a pass rush completely fails to execute, the likely scenario is a completed pass. When a cover guy completely fails to execute….. TOUCHDOWN.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that the two are synergistic.
A great pass rush means a secondary has nothing to do.
A great secondary gives the pass rush all the time in the world to break down the protection.
That said, the front 7 ends up more important because it is the first line of defense against the run.
I would rate the defensive positions in the same order as Richard: NT, DE, ILB, OLB, CB, SS.
On the offensive side, the QB is the no-brainer because he handles the ball more than any other player. I then rate the OL as most important, in particular LT.
I might even push for S over CB
The Pats have always invested high-round picks and/or high-level free agents at Safety. There’s never been a significant gap between Milloy, Harrison and Meriweather, or Eugene Wilson, James Sanders and Pat Chung. Compare that to some of the CBs the Pats have fielded over the years – Delta O’Neal, Earthwind Moreland, and even Troy Brown.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see that!
I guess I’ve always been one to consider the “secondary” virtually interchangable positions. I know their roles are different but I see it more similar than different. I guess I say the same for defensive ends and tacles as well.
Not the best way to do it but it’s the way my brain has worked none the less.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I still disagree
If a team boasts an extrordinary secondary, it can more than make up for a mediocre pass rush because Defensive plays can be called to send LB in aggressive blitz packages. When that happens, I don’t care how dynamic the offensive line happens to be, The ONLY way to beat that defensive package is for the QB to recognize it and get the ball off before he’s on his a$$. seeing 6 guys rushing up the gut gives the average QB about 2.5 seconds to make magic happen.
The opposite is NOT nearly as true! Meaning….. an above average pass rush does NOT bail out a mediocre secondary with nearly as much success. No matter how many advanced coverage schemes a defense calls, if a play calls for no blitz, great receivers can most always find seams or holes in the coverage and an above average QB will find them 75% of the time even though the seams are ridiculously tight.
So, if a team’s secondary is average or worse, it’s nearly suicide for them to blitz with any regularity. The Reggie Waynes, Brandon Marshalls, Marques Colstons and Randy Mosses of the league (as well as their respective QBs) lick their chops when they read blitz. A 6’4" Wideout running a post against a 5’ 11" Corner….. The offense usually wins!
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
an above average pass rush does NOT bail out a mediocre secondary with nearly as much success. No
The 2009 Colts got to the Superbowl on the basis of a Dwight Freeney + Robert Mathis above-average pass-rush, backed by solid-but-unspectacular safeties (Melvin Bullitt, Antoine Bethea), and with relatively no-name, non-shutdown corners.
The 2009 Saints won the Superbowl on the basis of a flexible defensive line, good linebacker play (Vilma, Fujita), very good safety play (Darren Sharper), and no-name non-shutdown cornerbacks.
No matter how many advanced coverage schemes a defense calls, if a play calls for no blitz, great receivers can most always find seams or holes in the coverage and an above average QB will find them 75% of the time even though the seams are ridiculously tight.
The Saints won the Superbowl without a lot of all-out blitzing. They had interesting pass-rush schemes, but they weren’t true blitzes – they didn’t bring more pass-rushers than blockers.
In fact, the Saints won the Superbowl without even getting a single sack on Manning. They won it with ‘an advance coverage scheme’ that Manning’s receivers couldn’t find seams or holes in. And I’m pretty sure Manning’s an above-average QB. Go figure.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
QB, and then OT
QB automatically gets a premium in pay, and that’s not coincidental – good QBs win games, and they win Superbowls. OTs also get a premium, and that’s because they let QBs win games and Superbowls by keeping them upright.
After that, it all comes down to defensive and offensive philosophy. But pretty much every team agrees on OTs and QBs being of paramount performance, that’s why so many of them go in the top-5 drafting spots, and that’s why so many of them are at the top of the pay scales.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 5:06 AM EDT up reply actions
But that's only in the hypothetical
Ie – if you were starting a franchise from scratch, those two are most important.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 5:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Regarding the Offense, I agree with your opinion.
However, I’m thinking more on the defensive side of things.
I guess my overall point is: Successful play (in almost any sport) comes down to anticipating what your opponent is likely to do next, and adjust your resonse accordingly. Any sport that features atheletes in a face to face struggle, the player that experiences the most success will be the one who can keep his opponent successfully off-balance the very best. Rarely will it come down to simply “overpowering him”. Can a hitter anticipate the next pitch? Can a goalie anticipate glove side or stick side? Can a basketball defender anticipate a drive to the hoop or jumpshot? ECT ECT. While “overpowering” an opponent does occur, it’s rarely the norm in which atheletes find head to head success.
I believe the strength of a team’s cover-guys dictates the flexibility they can use (moreso than other defensive positions). If your cover-guys suck, complicated blitz packages are all but OUT THE WINDOW. The linebacking core’s primary job must be to provide support to the secondary crew. This often takes them away from their run-stopping and blitzing options. When this haapens, defensive strategy is way too predictable. In the NFL, predictability is a defensive nightmare. On the other side of the coin, if a team has a solid secondary but a suspect front 3 or 4, it opens the door for linebackers to play inside the box with greater freedom. I find a team doesn’t need a great pass rush if they’re sending 5 or even 6 guys after the quarterback. No matter how solid the offensive line is, or if you happen to be playing the 1-15 Rams, the quarterback will be on his ass in seconds if he can’t find a receiver. Offensive lines are not equipped to fend off six attacking defenders for any length of time.
With the dramaticly increased use of the quick pass, the slant, and the flanker screen, an offense does not need to control the line of scrimmage as much as they used to. All they have to do is pick apart the defenses that give receivers those blasted 5 yard cushions….. God I hate those! Brady has made a career out of doing just that!
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Depends on the defence
That’s why there’s no clear philosophy; different defender types work in different defences.
A blitz heavy team, irrespective of type (3-4, 4-3, Tampa 2) need a better-than average secondary because their linebackers and/or safeties are going to be blitzing. If you take the Jets as the example, they need on-an-island CBs, because if they didn’t have a guy that’s on the WR like a rash, then a good QB will carve them up. They live and die by CB play – pass-rushers mean jack if the QB can just stack all his HBs and TEs in tight to disrupt the pass-rush and throw to his #1 receiver all day. Heavy blitz teams need to shut down #1 and #2 receivers, and that means very good CBs. The exception is if you have a very, very good, very quick safety who plays more like a CB as it is – say, Ed Reed. Either way, it’s all about shutting out receivers from being able to make quick receptions, and that’s usually done by CBs.
A team that does a lot of disguise-based defensive looks (the Pats, the 2009 Saints) needs particularly versatile safeties and linebackers. The cornerbacks only need to be so-so; most of the big plays are going to be done either in tight by linebackers, or done deep by roving safeties (Rodney Harrison or Darren Sharper-types). The corners are there mostly to contain the WRs – it tends towards a bend-but-don’t-break defence, so ideally they only allow short gains and try to limit big plays. Having good Safeties and LBs is key to this kind of defence.
A team can also be a hybrid. The Steelers use a lot of zone-blitzes, so they need fairly versatile linebackers (albeit leaning towards mostly being pass-rushers), but it really needs great safeties more than CBs. A Steelers defence without great safety play is hopeless; the 2009 Steelers were dead in the water as soon as Troy Polamalu went down. It can, however, get away with only so-so CB play as long as the safeties and linebackers are playing well.
In other words – what your ‘premium’ position is really depends on the type of D you’re running. The more aggressive it is, the more likely you need ball-hawks and pass-rushers, so CBs and 4-3 DEs or 3-4 OLBs. The more disguise-based or bend-but-don’t-break it is, the more the focus is on Safeties and linebackers. It’s a rough guide, but there’s really no clear “this position means most” because it depends on the defence type.
Finally, a team that runs Tampa-2 type defence (Tampa, the Colts) don’t need standouts anywhere in particular in the secondary; it needs very consistent, but not showy players back there and in the LB corps, and the playmakers are on the D-line, particular the DEs.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 7:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Understood..... but...
Sans, It seems as though you’re pointing out that a team’s defense is dictated by what scheme feels the most comfortable to operate in, given their OWN style of play….. I believe that is changing with the evolution of todays advanced passing attacks. The change is subtle but I feel it’s big when having to develop a defensive philosophy. Instead of a team dictating their own defensive schemes, I believe the high-powered offenses they face are the ones often dictating what kind of defense an opposing team must run to stand a chance. The Saints did a particularly good job of that in their Super Bowl season. While their offense was certainly the featured nucleus. I believe it was the versatility of their defense that enabled them to do “one better” than any other team.
That Pats just haven’t done that in the last two years. They stick to the very same defensive philosophy you stated above and don’t seem to have the flexibility to change it when a new situation demands it. I believe it’s because they can’t with the cover guys they currently utilize.
When I consider the players who (for one reason or another) left New England in favor of another city, I was deeply bummed to see Asante Samuel walk. I’d like to know the story behind that because he was “the man” in my book. The Pats have kissed goodbye many would be free agents as result of salary demands. He’s basically the only one I look back on and say “they should have paid him”. I could be biased and being a little over dramatic, but I truly don’t think our secondary has been the same since he walked for greener pastures.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Well in a recent interview...
…Belichick stated that he believed the league was going to turn a corner extremely soon and head back towards a power running league. So who knows what he’s planning for!
by Richard Hill on Apr 28, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
You actually lend weight to that?
If such a change ever does take place I’m fairly certain BB won’t be leading the way. We’re talking about a guy who had his offense spearhead a 59 point, 445 yard, 6 TD, passing attack that took place in the middle of a raging snowstorm just last season (Oct 18th game vs Titans). So, even when the conditions demand a solid ground game, the aerial assault still takes center stage!
I’m not saying he didn’t say such a thing but I am saying he’s probably just filling the public full of jibber jabber to appease their need to hear him answer questions. I’ve come to believe that listening to a BB press conference carries about as much depth and insight as interviewing the goal post. when it comes to working the media, BB is a genius because he releases so little, and so vague information that you were better off not asking anything in the first place.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying we'll become a running team...
…I’m saying that our defense is looking for players who can help against the run in case his prediction is correct. Some teams are looking for lockdown corners because of the passing. Belichick is looking for corners who won’t give up the big play, but can help against the run.
by Richard Hill on Apr 28, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
This is where I disagree with BB
As a diehard Patriot fan, I say quite confidently there isn’t even ONE team currently in the league that has a running game we can’t stay with consistently. Yeah, they may gain yardage and control a big part of the clock, But they can’t routinely stop our offense which would likely lead to somewhat lower scoring Pats victory more times than not. Maybe the closest one would be the Vikings….. but we only face them once every three years! Personally, I like our chances in those situations.
On the other hand, I firmly believe there are currently four or five teams that will routinely toast the Pats given the strength of their passing attack. Indy, San Diego, New Orleans and maybe even Green Bay are all teams the Pats would lose to possibly 3 out of 4 times given the state of our current secondary and pass rush.. In my opinion, if the Pats can’t secure at least one some “cover-guy stud” and one guy to get after the QB, I see their playoff runs ending well before the Super Bowl to one of those teams.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Our team only got 'lit' up (as in >24 points) in 3 games last year
Indy (exhausted, under-manned front 7 ran out of gas in 2nd half).
Saints (our offense couldn’t stay on the field because we refused to run the ball in the face of a 3 and 4 man rush)
Houston (last, meaningless game of the year).
Other than that, our defense shut down everyone. Going into that Houston game we were ranked 3rd in pts against.
If we had more healthy defensive linemen and linebackers for that Indy game, we probably would not have let them back into the game. We just had too many injuries upto and during that game in the front 7.
In the NO game, it would have been nice to have had at least one more quality CB to counter all those zillions of recievers they kept sending flying down the field. A Devin McCourty might have made a difference there.
But overall, our defense was fine. Not perfect, and definitely subject to some well known improvements. But it was not really our problem last year.
As to ’can’t routinely stop our offense’ … well, far too often our offense did indeed get stopped. We had no balance at flanker to keep safeties from cheating over the top on Moss and we had problems at O-line all year which kept us from using our TEs in the passing game. Plus we refused to run the ball. Thus teams concentrated mostly on taking Moss away, content to let Welker chip away until the field shrank and then we’d have trouble in the red zone. That was the pattern in most of the games we lost, and even in some that we won.
The Gronk and Price picks (along with whatever Tory Holt and Brandon Tate can give us) may be very important both in providing balance to our spread packages and in giving us higher efficiency in the red zone.
Dude,
I interpreted your post as a form of DISAGREEMENT. Despite your efforts to do so, you managed to reinforce the very points I was making. I’ll try to explain once again.
I never meant to insinuate the Pats “SUCK”….. I consider them a top 5 team of the entire league. The point I’m making is they are NOT better than the Colts or the Saints. If the Pats want to reassume their dynasty, they’ll need to make changes or just play their very best games in just the perfect situations. I consider a “great year” to be a date in the AFC championship game if not the Super Bowl. I characterize the last two seasons as “good” only.
If the Pats want to be considered favorites over the handful of teams with dynamic passing attacks, they have to pick up a great cover guy and a great pass rusher. Otherwise, they’ll maintain their status as early playoff casualties.
What was your point in listing the games they lost? Let’s throw out the useless Houston game and look at their other 5 losses.
Colts………. Manning 327yds w/ 4 TDs
Saints…….. Brees 370yds ……w/ 5 TDs
Broncs…… Orton 335yds …….w/ 2 TDs
Phins…….. Henne 330yds ……w/ 3TDs
The only other loss was to the Jets who did EXACTLY what I’m suggesting WE need to do to these 4 teams listed above. The Jets successfully shut down the potent passing attack of Tom Brady and our beloved Pats with big time coverage and a big time pass rush!!!!!!
The point you make regarding 3rd in points allowed is extremely deceiving when one weighs what the Pats passing defense did against GOOD teams (see above).
In the previous post, I was clear to point out the Pats would routinely handle 26 or 27 out of the 32 teams in the league. Particularly with those who boasted superior ground games. The following 09 opponents were the teams with 1200+ yrd rushers. Here are the results:
Jets……….. Win
Jags……… Win
Titans……. Win
Ravens…. Win (regular season)
Jets………. Loss **
**The only regular season loss to a top rushing team. The final score was 9-16 and the top NYJ rusher had 57 yards.
Anyway, I think the records and the stats speak for themselves. I don’t have to argue it with very much passion. The rushing attacks did NOT hurt the Pats. Teams with high octane passing attacks DID hurt the Pats. We need studs in the secondary and another one to bolster the pass rush. While we “targetted those holes”, I think they fell short of the studs they needed
With that said…. they’re still going to be a “good” team.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh?
The rushing attacks did NOT hurt the Pats. Teams with high octane passing attacks DID hurt the Pats. We need studs in the secondary and another one to bolster the pass rush. While we "targetted those holes", I think they fell short of the studs they needed
You know when those wins/losses matter? Playoffs.
So let’s look at the playoff game.
1) 83 yard TD run to Ray Rice.
2) 1 yard TD run to Le’Ron McClain.
3) 1 yard TD run to Ray Rice.
4) 3 yard TD run to Willis McGahee.
Totals:
Ray Rice, 159 yards, 2 TDs.
McGahee, 62 yards, 1 TD.
Joe Flacco, 4 from 10, 34 yards.
Running didn’t hurt the Pats? Teams with high-octane passing attacks hurt the Pats? I don’t know about you, but I consider playoff losses a bigger deal than regular season losses, and the Pats playoffs were killed off by rushing, not passing.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless you count Brady's performance...
…as a passing game that killed us in the playoffs. He set the defense up to fail.
by Richard Hill on Apr 28, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh sure, that didn't help
But when a team gets ~300 offensive yards and only 34 are through the air…
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I figured that would be mentioned.
Do you actually believe the Pats played a good game and got “beat” by a better team that day? I personally don’t think so!
I remember it like it was yesterday. I was THERE. I’m a season tix holder and I can boast having viewed EVERY Pats game (from start to finish) for the last 20 years or so. That was the very first time I nearly walked out of the stadium before the last horn. It was nothing shy of a pethetic. I believe they outright GAVE that game to a weaker opponent. They literally lost their will to win after the first quarter. It’s happened two or three times in the past decade and that was one of them. Sad… very sad. I do not expect your response to be in agreement. Sans, you seem like enough of a true fan to be able to understand what I’m talking about. I don’t know, maybe you’re not… Oh Well!!! I will never view that game as one where they got “lost” to a better opponent. The Ravens sucked too! they just had better bounces.
Despite finishing with 250 yard on the ground, the Ravens had no better than an “average” game on the ground! If you take away that one long run, they averaged like 3.1 yards per carry. Flacco completed 4 frikken passes on 10 attempts! How pathetic is that?
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, okay
Despite finishing with 250 yard on the ground, the Ravens had no better than an "average" game on the ground! If you take away that one long run, they averaged like 3.1 yards per carry. Flacco completed 4 frikken passes on 10 attempts! How pathetic is that?
Enough to win a playoff game. Which is all that matters. Or are you backtracking from your “only a season where the Pats make the AFCCC is a success!” thing?
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I already made my statement and I will not back down from it. The Raven won because the Pats sucked worse than they did.
Yup the Ravens won. My point is you can’t make even one point about that game that’ll change my opinion about their strengths and weaknesses. as result of that game.
Contrary to what you may think, my perspective over this game is NOT clouded. In the same breath I can also admit the Pats have won several games over the past decade where they sucked just a fraction less than the other team. So, the ball bounces both ways. I just refuse to use the results of the game to measure anything other than the attitudes and wills of the players.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Shrug
The rushing attacks did NOT hurt the Pats. Teams with high octane passing attacks DID hurt the Pats.
Pats lost a playoff game to a team that threw for 34 yards and ran for 250. ’Nuff said.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Correct me if I’m wrong but these debates are opportunities to take meaningful data from the past and apply it to the future to build a better team. Are you actually trying to tell me that game revealed some statistical insight the Pats need to strongly consider as they build their team or are you just trying to prove me wrong? I guess I don’t get it.
As a coach, the ONLY revealing facts that came out of that game to use for as they build their future was WHO GAVE UP & WHO DIDN’T….. WHO’S ATTITUDE BECAME A CANCER & WHO STAYED FOCUSED…. WHO WERE THE LEADERS & WHAT DIRECTION DID THEY LEAD…. That’s about it!
You seem far too intelligent to think Belichick is looking back at that game pondering the dazzling running attack of the the Ravens as if this game was statistically meaningful. Like I said before…. Sometimes the Pats win in the same fashion. When they do, it’s a win but from a coaching standpoint, the garbage stats are almost meaningless!
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it's just a recognition that it's not just an all-out passing league
If and when the Pats go to the playoffs, they can legitimately expect to meet teams strong in passing (Colts, Saints), and teams that are strong at running (Jets, Ravens). You can’t rob Peter to pay Paul entirely, or you’ll meet a team like the Ravens that will annihilate you.
If the Pats want to be considered favorites over the handful of teams with dynamic passing attacks, they have to pick up a great cover guy and a great pass rusher. Otherwise, they’ll maintain their status as early playoff casualties.
That’s not necessarily true. Havine Revis didn’t make the Jets win against the Colts. Having Asomugha didn’t let the Raiders win against anyone. Nor did having Jared Allen make the Vikings beat the Saints, and Julius Peppers didn’t make the Panthers unbeatable.
More to the point, the Colts and Saints – the teams who went to the Superbowl – didn’t have shutdown corners. The Colts did have elite pass-rushers, but that didn’t mean they automatically won. In fact, the team with the most balanced defence – the Saints – won the whole thing, and they did it without shutdown cornerbacks and without all-out pass-rushing freaks.
It’s not having a shutdown CB or two that wins Superbowls; nor is it merely having two amazing pass-rushers around. It’s getting the balance right. The Saints did that, and that’s what the Pats should be aiming for. They have to play against both the run and the pass, and they can’t do it merely by picking up stud CBs or OLBs.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed....... almost completely
In the process of re-tooling, it’s best to gather information based on consistent data as opposed to one time issues or happenstance.
In my opinion, New England would beat Baltimore 7 out of 10 times with last year’s teams. On the flip side, I believe they would LOSE that same ratio to both the Colts and the Saints under identical game circumstances. I don’t think that’s a stretch to assume. I’m firm in my belief 4 of the Pats 5 (legitimate) 09 defeats came as result of their inability to stop a superior aerial attack. My point all along has been for Bill to gather personel to combat that issue.I was hoping via the draft, but free agency is every bit as effective. I believe we agree on that!
Sans, I appreciate you because your points always make sense. But I find you often deliver small points with what seems like a jack hammer in hopes to sway what you may consider a wayward opinion. You are one of a handful of characters I find intriguing to read whether I agree or not because you’re an inteligent human being and deliver your thoughts in a classy way despite any level of agreement or lack thereof you may share. That’s respectable
This last post successfully offered middle ground and it makes great sense. I’m not in favor of mortgaging away our runstopping ability! I just feel that area pales in comparison to defending a passing game.
I’ve written thousands of comments and opinions on various topics and I don’t ever recall having such heavy debate with an individual whom I have such miniscule disagreements (when it comes right down to it). It’s actually humorous in retrospect! LOL I guess it adds spice!
By the way…. What’s this South Hemisphere thing? You in Hawaii or Australia? What’s the deal there?
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, I might be a little used to knee-jerk reactions on here
It’s usually “The Pats didn’t have a 1000 yard rusher! Draft everybody in the first round!” or “The Pats gave up 300 yards to Peyton Manning. Trade every draft pick they have for Darrelle Revis!”
The real point of note is this – the 2009 Saints won the Superbowl, and did so very convincingly after a very, very good season. And the other thing to notice is they did it following the Pats blueprint.Good veteran safeties. Good veteran linebackers. A solid and dependable D-line. No stud pass-rushers. No stud safeties.
The knee-jerk reaction is to want to draft every pass-rushing college freak, or every college corner that looked like they’d get a bunch of picks. That’s not the way to craft a winning defence. It’s a combination of minor upgrades along the unit, added experience, an improvement of coaching (bye, Pees!), and patience. And having a new slot Cornerback who can tackle helps, heh.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
No... not me.
I’m more of a student of the game to have ridiculous drafting expectations.
The only post you made a few days ago that bummed me out was in regard to my expectations of the Pats.
On a serious note, I do expect the Pats to compete for a Super Bowl every year! It would pi$$ me right off knowing anybody in the organization was shooting merely for “an improvement over last year”. There are 4, maybe 5 teams in the league that deserve to have that kind of confidence and the Pats are one of them. They’ve earned it and I believe the WANT their fans to think like this.
I hear what you say regarding how difficult it is to maintain that status every year but the Pats are more than capable given their organization. Of the four Super Bowls they’ve been in, I’m not sure how many players saw got into each game but I do know the number is relatively small in comparison to what one might think it is. That tells me they already know how to deal with “changing of the guard”.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh and Asante was let go...
…because he blew the Super Bowl. Tyree was his man. He dropped an interception.
Also, he’s the Adalius Thomas of cornerbacks. He just can’t freaking land a tackle. He’ll get an interception every once in a while, but more often than not his receiver will be making a big gain.
by Richard Hill on Apr 28, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Richard,
I have not followed Samuel’s career since he daparted. In spite of that, I still hear his name mentioned regularly among the top cover guys in the league. Just for $hits and giggles, I googled top NFL cornerbacks and visited two websites. Both listed him as among the leagues best. See for yourself on this site if you chose (it lists him as #5)
http://www.nfltouchdown.com/nfl-top-10-cornerbacks/
Anyway, I’m not going to base my entire argument on what ESPN or some websight feeds me so I’ll simply back down if it’s your intention to provide stats and statistics beyond this. I’m not the kind of guy who goes sour on a player who bolts town for more money or a better contract. It’s a free market society and we would all do the very same thing if hundreds of thousands of dollars were at stake! In my opinion the guy is good if not great!
By the way, Adalius Thomas couldn’t even make some game day rosters let alone play consistently great football. His production since his 2007 season went into the dirt! That, combined with his attitude was what sent him packing!
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Well...
…he’s the worst tackling corner in the league. Sure, he had 9 picks and that’s good. But he gave up 13 yards a completion. He was the worst (not one of the worst, THE worst) corner in giving up yards after the catch. He surrendered 2/3rds of the passes thrown his way. I’d much rather have a corner who gets 3-4 picks on the year, who only gives up 50% of his passes, swats down the ones he can’t intercept (2:1 passes defended ratio compared to Samuel), rarely gives up yards if the pass is completed and who rarely misses a tackle (that’s Bodden).
That’s the difference between the guy who can hit 30 home runs in a season, but is batting .200 and a guy who can hit 15 home runs, but is consistently hitting singles and doubles and is floating around .300.
I’ll take the latter.
by Richard Hill on Apr 28, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.... that's a point
I do get your point. Although I don’t agree with it, it does carry weight. In my opinion, a cornerbacks greatest value is a stat that’s almost incapable of being tracked. A number of entities have tried to calculate this particular quality but it’s better described as an “intangible”. That is….. How often does a QB decide against throwing the ball in his direction! That’s where Asante excelled.
I personally believe at least half of all interceptions are merely “right place right time” scenarios and therefore somewhat of a deceiving stat. I put more weight on deflections, knockdowns, hits that jar the ball loose, and one that you seemingly alluded to ….. 3rd down tackles shy of the first down marker. I don’t agree that Samuel was the best in the league by any mean but he was the closest thing we had to a stud we had and I thought the secondary packages for the last two seasons were marginal at best.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That IS tracked.
Its simply the percentage of passing plays that the CB was on the field with in which the CB’s man was targeted or not.
If you are Champ Baily or Daryl Revis, that number is low.
But that number has to be ‘earned’. To get it you have to first make it unprofitable to throw in your direction. The best measure of that is the yds per attempt against you.
I know that!
I just consider most secondary stats somewhat useless. Their very deceitful and often don’t reveal how good OR how poor a player executes.
Example: Most INTs are “right place right time” as opposed to dazzling atheletic plays. Additionally, you’ve made the “route jumping” point very effectively. Some of those INTs are the result of too many risks. Another issue are TACKLES. They are quite deceiving. For example, the CBs better be tackling the guiy they cover! On the other hand, too many tackles made on running plays is a pi$$ poor indication of the play of your Linebackers!
What I expect out of my corners is that they are ON the receivers when they make their last break to get open. If they are, good QBs are going to a secondary receiver OR they’re going to force him to throw a dangerous pass!
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
CBs racking up tackles don't necessarily mean it's bad LB play; it could be great CB play
Darrelle Revis was an utter interception hound at CB last season, but he got beaten out for DPOY honours by a CB who racked up a buttload of tackles in run-support, blitzing, sniffing out screens and delays and roll-outs and bootlegs.
Going by stats alone is why players like Asante Samuel get elected to the Pro Bowl in 2009. Actually watching the player take too many risks to get those stats is why the Eagles want to trade Samuel away in 2010.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Defensively effective teams will most frequently have linebackers as leading tacklers. Agreed…. Some guys in the secondary have a nose for run support. With that said, if the wideouts are doing their job, those tackles should be taking place six or seven yards into the defensive backfield. If that’s occuring with any regularity, I’d say the linebackers are more likely the ones who’ll catch heII for that come Monday morning.
I believe Samuel has more upsides than some of you give him credit for…. but that goes with the territory when you demand the big bucks….. WHICH HE GOT. That’s why we let him walk! He wanted too much money for the value he brought to the table. If I had to guess, I’d say Philly wants to deal him because that fact has become a bit more glaring as opposed to thinking he’s some sort of significant liability.
By the way…. You never answered the “Hemisphere” question asked in a prior post. A little too personal? If so…. My bad.
by Bills friend on Apr 28, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I missed that question
New Zealand, if that was the question. Born, bred, accented, the whole deal. Hah.
From what I’d heard, Philly wanting to get rid of Samuel was a personnel, not a pay issue. In particular, they wanted to trade Donovan McNabb and Asante Samuel to the Raiders in exchange for Nnamdi Asomugha. A player-for-player trade in the exact same position suggests they really don’t like what Samuel’s doing; otherwise they would have packaged something else to get Asomugha and Samuel. They’re wanting to shed Samuel and pick up a CB who doesn’t jump routes or play loose; they’ve also been linked to CB Sheldon Brown.
That all led me to believe that they were all too happy to get rid of Asante Samuel, rather than use him as high-priced bait for something else.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 29, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe you
I generally don’t follow too many other teams personel issues unless it hits the national spotlight. Whenever i see a point of interest on ESPN and other big networks I’ll read up on it a little so I don’t talk completely out my a$$ but that happens once in a while anyway LOL… Time is valuable as my wife is just shy of being a “widow” on weekends in football season and I just can’t subject her to any additional fanatical sports studies.
It’s funny to say…. but I’m not used to writing posts with others who actually KNOW THE GAME. For several years I’ve had literally thousands of cyber debates (mostly on Yahoo) with idiots who’s idea of winning an arguement is to call Hoodie “Beli-cheater”….. It got old man!
Anyway, fun chatting with you…. I feel a little beaten up occasionally after doing so, but fun none the less.
Holy $hit…. New Zealand? Outside of sports, my 2nd passion is experiencing great natural beauty (particularly mountainous regions). NZ is probably in my “top 5” to see someday.
by Bills friend on Apr 29, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Spygate Spygate Belicheater give-back-Rings-to-Philly!
You get the odd one of those on here, but they don’t really have the staying power.
I think part of that ‘beaten up feeling’ is that those kinds of debates go on often enough in here that the regulars end up with a standing list of ‘reasons to do x, not y" and then trot them out fairly regularly. It becomes a pretty concise burts of information after a while, which I guess can look like a hammer hitting a grapefruit to someone who’s new to it.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 29, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The Eagles wanted to get rid of him.
He was voted for the Pro Bowl, but he’s such a liability to give up big plays and miss tackles that the Eagles were shopping him to anyone who’d listen.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
He's a route-jumper
He’s not a Pats-type CB. He’s a risk taker, and he’ll definitely get interceptions during a season. But he’ll also definitely give up big plays; cue a replay of Tyree’s helmet-catch. That’s fine for an aggressive play that lives and dies by turnovers, but that’s not New England’s style.
Bend-but-don’t-break means just that. A guy who’s 50/50 to either get an interception or get burned for a 60 yard completion is the definition of ‘break’.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The Saints copied the Pats blueprint, though
Safeties were their playmakers – check. A versatile LB corp that can blitz, cover and stuff the run in equal measure – check. A versatile and malleable defensive front – check. So-so quality corners taken at a discount – check.
The Saints put out a defence that would’ve fit into any 2000s Patriots team without a blink. Squint your eyes and Darren Sharper looks a little Rodney Harrison-ish.
Asante Samuel was an uber-aggressive route-jumper. He fits a team like the Jets – a team who blitzes a lot and risks a lot to get turnovers. He didn’t fit the bend-but-don’t-break Patriots team, because he’d come out of his cover assignments or zones to try to make big plays. He’s the antithesis of what’s ideal. For the Pats, you want particularly solid-but-perhaps-unspectacular cornerbacks like Leigh Bodden or the new guy, Devin McCourty.
The Saints didn’t have any spectacular CBs last season, and they won the Superbowl. The Samuels of this world don’t win you Championships, and they can definitely lose them – watch the last 5 minutes of the 2007 season Superbowl and watch him come off his man far too often. Not only did he drop that pick, helmet-catch was his fault – he should’ve been covering his man, and he let him slide.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
by Comedic.Sans on Apr 28, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions

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