Who Stays and Who goes? - New England Patriots Tight-Ends

by SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 28, 2010 7:00 PM EDT in Opinion/Analysis

During the dulls, I'll take a swag at who will make the final roster without the benefit of seeing most of these guys with pads on. Next up Tight ends.

We started into training camp last year with 4 TE's and I was fooled into thinking we were going to keep all of them. I was wrong, yet with the injuries that our O-line suffered, another tight end or two couldn't have hurt. This year, we are heading toward camp with four entirely new bodies (well, new to us): Alge Crumpler, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, and Rob Myers. I'd like to take some advice from The Who who said, "We won't get fooled again.", but we'll see how it goes.

Rob Myers isn't exactly new to the Patriots, he spent time last year on our practice squad. He's still eligible, and unless he does something to surprise during training camp, he could go right back on the practice squad and not miss a beat.

Alge Crumpler was a pass catching fiend for the Falcons. He moved to Tenessee, added some weight (not the lean variety), and took on more of a blocking role with the Titans. He was effective in both roles. Reading between the lines in his and Belichick's comments, I don't believe he is coming here strictly to firm up the O-line. I think he is expecting to catch some passes as well. Do you hear that O'Brien? Alge has slimmed down, and may have become a lean, mean, pass catching machine once again. Oh, he'll still be around to lend blocking support, but don't be as surprised as the defense will be when he breaks out and snags a few Brady passes in the red zone.

Speaking of all around tight-ends, we picked up another in Rob Gronkowski. Gronk can hold his own at the line of scrimmage, and catching in traffic. He hurt his back last year, and they might give him lighter duty for awhile as they see how things go. Don't expect him to sit out for extended periods, though. Double TE sets just got more dangerous for the defense with both Rob and Alge in the game.

Aaron Hernadez might be called upon to chip block now and again and again and again, but don't expect him to stand toe-to-toe at the line of scrimmage. Of course, that's about the only place he won't be lined up. Tim Tebow's favorite target can run or catch out of the backfield, and is lethal split wide. He is a Dallas Clark sort that creates mismatches no matter who defends him.

We only carried two TE's on the active roster last year. I'll give you this year's guess after the jump.

I already tipped my hand on this one in the running back post. Since Hernandez has the size and can play fullback, I'm pretty sure he'll steal the extra roster spot we need from the running backs. The only way we carry four tight-ends is if Mr. Myers does a jaw dropping job in training camp. So far, I've not heard his name mentioned once. No news, in this case, might be bad news for Myers. He could make the team if one of the other guys is hurt, but then we'd still only have three TE's on the roster.

Some have said that Alge's number may be called more at the beginning of the season, and Gronkowski's more as he heals up and gains experience. Pass wise, that may be true, but I think we'll see plenty of both of them through the season. Hernandez, on the other hand should be thrown around in multiple formations with the defense always asking, "Who the heck was covering THAT guy?".

Here's my call:

1. Alge Crumpler

2. Rob Gronkowski

C. Aaron Hernandez (He's not number 3, he's in a different role altogether)

PS: Rob Myers

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Comments

i think alge crumpler is going to produce

more then we think he is he has slimmed down and worked out big time this offseason i dont think he is the next tony gonzalez but he isnt jabari hollaway either.

by brady12mvp3 on Jun 28, 2010 7:02 PM EDT reply actions

where is everyone getting this "Hernandez can play FB"?

He may line up in the backfield and motion out, but in terms of being an actual FB, I just don’t see it.
He is an undersized TE, who is a great receiver…but he had all of 1 carry in 3 yrs at UF and is known to not be a tremendous blocking TE.

So I’m not sure I really see him making the roster at the expense of a FB, because they are going to need someone how can take a draw, lead block and catch the ball – Hernandez only hits on one of these 3.

Still, there is no way the 3 TEs don’t make the roster….Experience and blocking from Crumps, with a few good catches in him too. Blocking and some “let me show” skills at Wr from Gronk, and then the Dallas Clark 2.0, Hernandez, who could really become a favorite of Tom’s.

3 TE’s, absolutely…I’m just as positive of this as I am the FOUR AWESOME TEs the Pats had last year…..wait….

Chris Baker was going to be a steal….um
Alex Smith was going to be a Watson like threat…..he just needed to ….ugh
Watson was going to take off in a contract year….and he was amazing…..in week 1..
David Thomas was going to show off those magic hands….oh never mind

So um yeah….definitely 3 TEs. i’m sure of it!

by JonnyNYC on Jun 28, 2010 7:58 PM EDT reply actions

LOL

My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.

by SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 28, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions

This is a great series by the way, SMP

Sure, some of these questions and roster spots will work themselves out in Training Camp, but they’re certainly worth debating now. It will be a whole new set of questions afterwards.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on Jun 29, 2010 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions

Thanks. It makes training camp a little more funn to see where the battles are.

I’m not afraid to be wrong, either, which helps – because some of this is as clear as mud. With the dearth of info the Patriots give out and all of the scheme stuff that Reiss and Co. aren’t allowed to talk about, you might as well just throw darts – you’ll be about as accurate. Despite all the guessing, Belichick still manages to keep things up his sleeve wearing a sleeveless hoodie.

Still, 53 adds up much, much sooner than you expect. You can’t just cut from your least favorite field position and still expect to have any shot at the playoffs. This is football which means guys will get hurt. Only certain guys will make the practice squad, the more desireable players won’t stay there for long. It’s fun and frustrating to guess where it will all end up.

Then Hoodie will make a trade or two and muck up the whole works again….

My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.

by SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 29, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions

David Thomas showed off his hands...

problem was he did it during the playoffs for the Saints. D’oh!

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.

by Comedic.Sans on Jun 28, 2010 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Whoever...

..took your lunch money, we gonna talk to him. I promise. ;)

by frogfromthemud on Jun 28, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions

In answer to the question about fullback,

The Globe reported this:

The tight end dyanamic: The Patriots’ two draft picks at tight end — Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez — were working with quality-control assistant Brian Ferentz, who appears to be (as expected) their position coach. Gronkowski worked almost exclusively as the in-line tight end, while Hernandez was the move guy, lining up wide, in the slot, at H-back and at fullback, and showing fluidity in his routes and catching the ball.

There is also this scouting report that lists him as a Tight End/Fullback.

There were many other draft sites that mentioned in line blocking, running out of the backfield, and other such fullback like jobs. I’m not making it up, just reporting it. He also has better size for the job than ANY of our running backs. He’s at least on par with the linebackers he’d be facing. Take it for what it’s worth.

My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.

by SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 28, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Interesting read.

Anyone notice the little bit at the tail of the story?

NFL Comparison: Benjamin Watson

Is that a good or bad thing? I always wanted to see what Watson could do when flexed outside as a WR; might finally get to see it with Hernandez.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.

by Comedic.Sans on Jun 28, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions

One difference, Hernandez doesn't appear to have trouble catching in traffic.

My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.

by SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 28, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Flex him out in front of Welker/Edelman...

and then have a multiple look on that side of the field – Gronkowski in the Y, Hernandez in the flex, Welker tucked in behind. Everyone can catch, and there’s a deadly bubble-screen if they don’t want to throw forward…

I like the flexibility Hernandez provides, more and more…

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.

by Comedic.Sans on Jun 29, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions

A good thing

Watson’s only downside were his intermittent stone hands. It doesn’t erase the amazing athlete that he was, his stellar character, his blocking ability and some of the amazing catches that he did make in his New England career.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on Jun 29, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions

All of the reports read to me as "reciever out of the backfield and multiple formations"

But I really don’t see any indication that he’s more then a Hback/cosmetic FB.

He will never be confused with Sam Gash, or even Sammy Morris to me.

So this to me is talking about two different fullbacks, one that can run, block and catch occasionally vs one how will be a receiver 90% of the time.

PS – I wasn’t singling you out as stating this, it’s a pretty wide spread conversation – I just don’t see much beyond a smoke and mirrors fullback in him

by JonnyNYC on Jun 30, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions

You could be right.

I never saw much of him in action as I don’t watch much college ball anymore. I’m not going to tell you he can do the job, I’m just saying the Patriots stuck him there during rookie camp. They also tried out a line backer there.

Nothing against Sammy or BJGE, but they are both pretty light to be a fullback. One on one with a linebacker and the linebacker is going to win off of mass most of the time.

A heavier guy, whether it is a true FB, Hernandez, or a part time LB, will be more durable in that spot.

I’d like to see us with a real fullback. Barring that, I’m just guessing what Belichick is thinking just like every coach he’s ever played against. Just like most of them, I’ll probably be wrong.

My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.

by SlotMachinePlayer on Jun 30, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions

If you can put some weed on whoever he's trying to block.. or depending, some Cheetos

He’ll pancake the guy for a hit of that stuff.

by satsunada on Jun 30, 2010 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions

if he cares

Keep the faith!

by Marima on Jun 30, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions

Meyers has a chance if

Gronkowski isn’t healthy enough. not out side the relam of possiblity

It's hard to say what's been most impressive. The seamless jump from AA? The ability to hit for average? The ability to hit for power? The 18 walks in 111 trips to the plate? The flair for the dramatic? When you're trying to isolate the most impressive aspect of Jason Heyward's game, there's a lot to choose from, and it's only been a month and a half.

by Richie Grogan on Jun 28, 2010 7:59 PM EDT reply actions

And if he is healthy enough and he and Hernandez are as good as the media say they are, Crumpler could get cut mid-season

If the Pats need an extra roster spot for an extra LB, CB, WR, RB, or whatever due to injuries and Gronk and Hernandez are playing well, Crumpler could be gone.

by RSNexile on Jun 28, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd hope they wouldn't cut him, given how 2 TEs was barely enough last season

True, they could pull up Myers from the practice squad, but given Gronkowski’s coming off injury (echoes of Tate last season?) and Hernandez may or may not be a discipline risk (I suspect not, but he’s not squeaky-clean, either), I’d prefer having Crumpler to stick around – a guy with all the experience in the world versus an ex-UFA with no NFL experience isn’t really a competition.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.

by Comedic.Sans on Jun 28, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd hope the same, but who else can you spare?

Remember, most of the UFAs with no experience aren’t going to make the final cut anyway, so they’ll already be off the roster if the Pats need to pick someone up. In fact, they’d probably be prime candidates to be picked up.

So if you need to pick up a free agent in the middle of the season to get you through a couple of games, who do you cut to open up a roster spot? If the Pats only carry two QBs, as I suspect they will, it’s not like they can really afford to cut Hoyer. There’s depth at RB and WR, but not so much you can afford to cut someone mid-season. Same with the O-line and D-line, where we’re likely to have injuries. LB is probably our weakest position, S is strong but there isn’t much depth if you cut someone mid-season, and we don’t have any depth at CB if Wheatley and/or Wilhite make the team.

The way I see it, there aren’t many options. Crumpler is one of them, and the others are going to be guys like Aiken whose value is mostly on special teams.

by RSNexile on Jun 28, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions

At that point, I wonder if one of the rookies finds an 'injury'

I wouldn’t be surprised if Taylor Price winds up on the IR with a grazed knee or something, especially if Tate looks sharp in comparison. Price is definitely a player for the future, but with the exception of Edelman, rookie WRs don’t usually click on the NE offence, so if they get him a little gametime, a season with the playbook, and then shuffle him safely off onto IR in what’s basically a Redshirt year, that might be what they do to make room.

I also suspect that’s why they pick O- and D-linemen in the last couple of rounds – you can cut them, sign them onto the practice squad, and when those inevitable injuries happen you have guys with playbook familiarity waiting in the wings on a just-in-case basis. If the injuries don’t strike, no harm done to the roster 53.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.

by Comedic.Sans on Jun 28, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Actually...

…according to the PFW guys Price looked better (better route runner, softer hands and more athletic) despite being a rookie and missing a month. But both guys can have additional value in special teams anyway.

by frogfromthemud on Jun 29, 2010 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm not sure about Price on special teams...

Tate’s a definite special team’s lock – top-rated kick returner, and ought to feature highly in the return game with Welker returning from injury, Faulk being a year older, and Edelman probably picking up some of the slack in the offensive side. Price hasn’t really been run as a kick or punt returner in the offseason practices and workouts, so Tate’s probably more likely to feature on the roster out of the two solely because he’s a returner.

It might well be a tossup between Torry Holt’s route-running ability and Taylor Price’s… and as much as I like Price, I suspect they’ll Injury Reserve Price before they cut Holt.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.

by Comedic.Sans on Jun 29, 2010 6:14 AM EDT up reply actions

The coaching staff might "find an injury" for the rookie too

I’m still not convinced about the legitimacy of Shawn Crable’s groin injury or calf injury or whatever it was that got him pulled his second year.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on Jun 29, 2010 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Depends on the rookie

You’d hurt Price’s development that way, but one of the linemen might be ok.

by RSNexile on Jun 29, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions

With Rookies, may not have to look that hard

Guys like Tate and Price haven’t been hit by any Ray Lewis or Darrell Revis’s yet -no idea how durable they really are.

Ditto lineman, and CBs where hamstrings and leg injuries can pop up out of nowhere – legitimately or perhaps illegitimately.

by JonnyNYC on Jun 30, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Gronkowski

They traded UP to snag Gronkowski ahead of the Ravens. I have to believe that he was cleared physically to have made that type of manuever. I have never even considered Crumpler being released during this season. He’s the starting TE in my view. I think Gronkowski and Hernandez will share the double TE role in some type of rotation based on field position, and Hernandez might also motion out of the FB position to be a slot receiver with Crumpler and Gronkowski in as double TE’s.

Rob Myers returns to the PS.

Price was a 3rd round selection. Tate was a 3rd round selection as well. They suited up Tate with full expectations of using him until he was hurt. I expect Price to play this season. Holt is a lock to start across from Moss.

by couchpotato on Jun 29, 2010 6:37 AM EDT reply actions

Just to clarify, then...

You’re going with:
3 TEs: 1) Crumpler, 2) Gronkowski, 3) Hernandez, PS) Myers
6+ WRs: 1) Moss, 2) Holt, 3) Welker 4) Edelman 5) Tate, 6) Price. A 7th or 8th?

If so, are you planning on 4 or 5 RBs?

I think you’re probably right, but the sheer number of WR capable guys might be a little hard to squeeze onto the field, especially if Hernandez shows more talent as a Dallas Clark-style TE/WR hybrid rather than as a move-type FB/H-back/TE.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.

by Comedic.Sans on Jun 29, 2010 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions

I think so

Yes on 3 TE’s:
1) Crumpler, 2) Gronkowski, 3) Hernandez, PS) Myers

Yes on 6 WR’s:
1) Moss, 2) Holt, 3) Welker 4) Edelman 5) Tate, 6) Price.

I feel that Aiken [most likely] or Slater [less likely] will be kept as the Special Teams captain, and serve as the default back-up at WR should one of those six go down with an injury.

I think 4 RB’s:
Maroney, BJGE, Faulk, 4

4 will be either Morris, Taylor, or Unga [assuming BB chooses to bid for him].

If BB acquired Unga, he would absolutely be the starting FB [when a FB was used] and Unga would immediately replace one of the special teams LB’s. Unga fits the multiple role player that BB covets. In his case, his roles are FB and special teams [LB size].

This is why Unga makes a lot of sense to me. Mostly because I favor a FB in the offense. I rate that above an additional LB in the depth chart. And, because I still feel [and favor] the 2007 design [out score your opponent] will assist the defense as they mature/develop. A FB will add greatly to the out score approach: as a true power FB. Hernandez might be used as a decoy FB: set in motion. That’s yet another great addition to the offense, but it’s entirely different than having a guy like Unga whose role is to introduce smash face, power football between the tackles.

At LB, you have Mayo, Guyton, McKenzie, Spikes, Cunningham, Banta-Cain, Crable, Alexander, Woods, Ninkovitch, and Burgess. I believe the names in bold type are on the 53 man roster. Of the remaining four, three stay. If Unga arrives, only two stay.

by couchpotato on Jun 29, 2010 9:41 AM EDT reply actions

Run the ball

I feel that the PATS must establish steady use of the run to offset the blitzes and schemed coverages. They need to force the defense to defend the run on every down.

I still want a 70% passing attack, but not done in absurd doses without sprinkling in some running plays. I would prefer to see less shot gun and more play action from under center. I would like to see a move the chains mindset when they start drives inside their own 30 yard line. Make the 40 yard line a minimum priorioty before punting to win the field position game. Play conservatively from their own goal line to their own 40 yard line by using shorter pass routes, power running, and heavier use of the TE’s underneath.

Part of this desire stems from my interest in protecting Brady. Shorter routes, power running between the tackles, and play action will keep Brady standing far more often.

And, in the end, it will allow Moss, Tate, and Price to run longer routes where their speed can be taken advantage of with less pressure on Brady.

by couchpotato on Jun 29, 2010 10:13 AM EDT reply actions