Patriots Coffee Talk 2/21: DE or OLB?
by Greg Knopping on Feb 21, 2011 6:01 AM EST
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Print[Editor's Note: Welcome to Patriots Coffee Talk! This is going to be an experimental feature that will go up each weekday morning at 6:00 AM. Topics will have a wide range, but will bring up relevant Patriots issues and its goal will be to spark debate. So yap away! -Greg]
Heading into the 2011 NFL draft, most Patriots fans agree that the team's biggest two needs on the defensive side of the ball are at defensive end and outside linebacker.
At defensive end, the Patriots have a platoon that includes Ty Warren and Ron Brace as left ends, with Mike Wright and Brandon Deaderick at right end heading into next season. There are also a couple of young players such as Kade Weston, and there's also the possibility of sliding out Vince Wilfork to defensive end. Gerard Warren is headed for free agency. Still, there's no question the Patriots could use a player in the form of Richard Seymour at defensive end, something they have lacked over the past two seasons.
The outside linebacker position is also in a similar situation. The Patriots have a lot of solid players, but no real standouts. The Patriots will return their top players at the position, with Tully Banta-Cain, Jermaine Cunningham, Rob Ninkovich, and Eric Moore all returning next season. That being said, the Patriots don't have a guy that can consistently put fear in the eyes of opposing quarterbacks and generate pressure, so many people believe this is a big position of need.
The question being posed to you is this: If you could come out of the draft with a top player at just one of these two positions, which would it be, defensive end or outside linebacker? In other words, which position is the bigger need?
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OLB for sure.
We saw last year that there are options on the defensive line. Put Wilfork at RE, and use Kyle Love at NT. Ron Brace is just sitting there (with the return of Ty Warren at LE), Myron Pryor and Mike Wright can get through the line on 3rd downs, there are ways around the lack of a Right End. What was lacking was the ability to get to the QB quickly. Cunningham was around the mark, but he dropped right back with injury. Banta-Cain? He’s useful, but nothing more than a dime-package sub. Ninkovich? Covers okay to well, but doesn’t have the strength to set the edge or rush the passer. Eric Moore seems like being a great find, but he’s no Lawrence Taylor. Keep him for nickel duties. We need the guy that forces the protection to slide towards him, keeps extra guys in, and makes it easier for everyone else to get to the QB.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Feb 21, 2011 6:17 AM EST reply actions
The Patriots have aggressively targeted the DE/DT/NT spots...
Drafting or singing guys such as Ron Brace, Kyle Love, Gerard Warren, Myron Pryor, Mike Wright, Brandon Deaderick…
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Feb 21, 2011 8:34 AM EST up reply actions
So they don't really need help there.
At least, it’s not a pressing need.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Feb 21, 2011 8:55 AM EST up reply actions
Actually it is. But linebacker should take priority.
I know that the Patriots will take the best player available, but Robert Quinn is what we need. Who knows if he’ll fall that far. Or if New England will move up, but the Patriots need a linebacker who will do some damage to the other team. Jermaine Cunningham is coming. But he is going to need help.
RDE
OLB’s are usually making a switch from their college position so it’s hard to project their level of success in the NFL. Defensive linemen are a lot easier to gauge, and I think that’s been demonstrated by Belichick’s history of selecting DL in the first round.
That said, it’s always going to be best player available, regardless of positions, as long as they can improve the team.
Deep in enemy territory
Bigger need? OLB
Who I think they’ll draft first? DE
That's the way I'm leaning too.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
by insertscreenname on Feb 21, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
I also believe they will be trading 3 times in the first 2 rounds
so I’m not all that big on picking where or who they pick. Mainly just position they’ll likely target.
If you get a standout DE
by nature of the position it will free up OLBs more for pass rushing. The problem with the DEs the Patriots have on roster are they cannot control two gaps. Wilfork was the only DL this year that could reliably control two gaps, which throws the whole defensive system into whack.
RDE
if you could have the best OLB or RDE on your team you go with the bigger guy every time. The bigger a guy the more resources you need to stop him and he can free up other guys.
I went with def end
one of the most important thing in football is winning on the line of scrimmage on offense and defense . so thats why i hope they draft a def end a olb and offensive lineman. then maybe a big fast wr. like cobb from kentucky or little form unc or i really like hankerson from miami. my perfect draft is this 17 aldon smith at 28 muhammed wilkerson 33 sherrod or costanzo or the best tackle availble. 60 hankerson or little or cobb. then next pick they get moffit guard.
by brady12mvp3 on Feb 21, 2011 10:32 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Whichever one is dominant.
If you can find a dominant OLB, then fine – get him.
If you’re drafting one just to draft one, then I’d say pass on that. Especially if there is a stud DE available.
Too many OLB’s out there end up being JAG (just a guy). James Harrison is a stud, and was an undrafted free agent. Lamaar Woodley who is not as good, but not too bad was a 2nd round 46th overall. A high round pick (Vernon Gholston – 1st round 6th overall) is no guarantee of success at the position.
Elvis Dumervill (4th round – 126th overall) did nothing until he was put in the right scheme. Similarly with Mike Vrabel (3rd round – 91st overall) until he became a Patriot. Shawn Crable (Round: 3 – 78th overall) was a bust in our system.
I wouldn’t spend a high round pick on a position that is just as likely to be bust as boom. Rather I’d like us to grab a few guys at the position and see who can fit the hole. If there was a plethora of college teams that ran a two gap 3-4, then we’d have a bunch of guys to chose from. As it is, you’re looking for an undersized 3-4 DE with fluid hips that can cover (past TE experience helps). That’s a pretty specialized skillset if you are looking for a three down guy. Otherwise you are getting a pass rusher (Tully Banta-Cain) or a cover guy (Gary Guyton) and you need to swap them out on certain downs.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Official Fire-Puncher for Pats Pulpit an SB Nation Blog
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 21, 2011 11:25 AM EST reply actions
Elvis Dumervil was a BEAST as a 4-3 defensive end AND as a 3-4 outside linebacker
that kid can play. it wasn’t the scheme, it was him
HOMERS? lmfao
I was issued a WARNING! Because i called Kraft a “CHEAP BASTURD” . In SB Nations "MISSION STATEMENT " they welcomed “spirited debate”.That was my intention when i posted that statement. Outside of the title of my post,all other language was proper.( i know Krafts parents were married) Apparently my opinon was unpopular with the editor as undoubtably with some posters. My content though is undeniable.Without the existance of a pass rush it possibly cost us chances to go further into the play-off the past 2 yrs. The fact that Kraft has mortgauged the present for the future is also undeniable. In my opinion this has been done not in the best interest of the organization or fans. But solely on dollars & non-sense. As i stated ,we have been blessed with up to this point with one of the greatest Q.B.s of all time.And in this HOMERS opinion the reason for the Pats sucesses. My whole argument with my post was Kraft should re-sign Mankins.Not let him go the way of Seymour. So if i’m missing something here & assuming this is’nt a KRAFT CONTROLLED media. I stand by my earlier statement about Kraft.And if that type of SPIRITED OPINION is’nt appreciated. Well…………………………..
by Pat's apologist on Feb 21, 2011 4:52 PM EST reply actions
Well...
Spirited debate is one thing, but out and out name calling with vulgarity is another. Also, your spelling was clearly designed to thwart vulgarity filters, or maybe it was just a “clever” way to slip in the word “TURD”. In a forum like this, there’s virtually no situation where vulgarity can’t be removed and still retain the spirit of the original post. Why cuss when you appear so much more intelligent sans the potty mouth?
Reality is a matter of opinion.
by MaPatsFan on Feb 21, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
are you and BP going to get together and have a drink and lively debate about your disdain of Krafty and Hoodie?
I don’t even know why you posted this lol
by pats4life on Feb 21, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's not your message, it's the way you are presenting it.
You could say that Kraft doesn’t like to spend money and accomplish the same idea without vulgarity. It doesn’t add to “Spirited debate”. Besides in a debate, you’re acknowledging that you will concede your point in the face of overwhelming evidence. Your posts are confrontational, not debates. Calling people homers and nancys isn’t debating. Knock it off.
Here’s evidence. Kraft paid Seymour – twice. When offered a first round draft pick for a aging guy that was a first round draft pick, he took it. Cheap or smart business? Remember he still had Wilfork and Brady to sign. Is it worth keeping Seymour to let Brady walk? Is he worth more than Wilfork? Remember Seymour played NT until Wilfork came along and took the job. Who is the better player?
There may not be a salary cap THIS year, but once the CBA is done, there will be. If the owners keep more of the money, the cap will drop.. You can’t keep everyone if they demand top money. The cap won’t allow it.
If you want to debate, then debate. If you want to keep calling names, then I’ll show you the door.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Official Fire-Puncher for Pats Pulpit an SB Nation Blog
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 21, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Remember you are the one that used Seymour as an example for Mankins.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Official Fire-Puncher for Pats Pulpit an SB Nation Blog
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 21, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
My content though is undeniable.
Except for the fact you’re dead wrong.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Feb 22, 2011 2:59 AM EST up reply actions
I'd like a stud OLB - but I doubt this draft as constructed will give us the next Jevon Kearse
at pick 17 or 28.
The problem with so many OLBs is that they don’t predict well when they go to the NFL. Often the best OLBs are converted "DE"s.
BPA.
Yep.
Undersized DE’s that can drop into coverage. Because it is such a position change, many of them take years to reach their peak. The good ones can come from any round and it’s tough to guess who’ll make it.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Official Fire-Puncher for Pats Pulpit an SB Nation Blog
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 21, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
I say DE.
It’s like the running backs and offensive linemen. Great O-Linemen make average rushers look good. Two or three DE/NTs that demand double teams and bring a little pressure themselves can make Banta-Cain look like Clay Mathews. Ok, that’s a stretch, but you get my point.
The Patriots were worst in the league at stpooing the run at RDE
If you can get a pass rushing run stopper aka. complete 3-4 DE at 17, then you take him. Fills both needs and has the added benefit the you don’t have to have to keep as many 2 down linemen on the roster, meaning you can have an extra receiver or OLB development prospect
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