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Pats Pulpit at Training Camp: 8/2 Notes

As announced previously in this space, XFINITY from Comcast has generously agreed to support the best NFL community around -- us!  As part of that effort, XFINITY will be sponsoring our Patriots’ training camp coverage as well as a variety of special editorial and interactive features on our site between now and the end of the 2011 NFL season.

Today through Sunday, I will be attending Patriots training camp, sponsored by Comcast.  Actually, I first arrived on Sunday night, only to find out that the Patriots' practice session was cancelled for Monday.  Oh well.  In addition, if you would like me to focus on any particular aspect of practice or player or if you want the "notes" in any particular format, just let me know in the comments section (although I can't reveal anything bout schemes / strategy). Here are my notes from today's practice:

  • Sitting in the corner of the bleacher's, I was close-up on mostly receiver and defensive back drills today, as well as team and special team scrimmages.
  • Off the bat, the two defensive backs that really stood out to me were Leigh Bodden and the freshly signed rookie second round draft choice Ras-I Dowling.  Dowling was big, and was strong in press coverage in position drills.  
  • The only time Dowling was beat was in team drills.  Dowling was in position, but Taylor Price came down with a beautiful toe-tapping sideline grab.  Speaking of Price, he had a decent day.  He certainly looks like one of the Patriots most physical receivers, and impressed me with his route running as well.
  • I mentioned that Leigh Bodden looked really good out there.  He was the one guy that no receiver could beat in press, he stayed with them every step of the way.  While Ty Warren, who missed all of 2010 like Bodden, and Tully Banta-Cain, who received a big contract like Bodden before 2010, have fallen by the wayside, it looks like Leigh has really shown up to play.
  • Chad Ochocinco, aside from Aaron Hernandez, is the best Patriots receiver when it comes to beating press coverage.  He can still burn down the sideline.
  • In a backs/tight ends/linebackers/safeties drill, Rob Gronkowski made a nice catch down the seam.  Shane Vereen looked solid in pass protection.  Meanwhile, Stevan Ridley struggled a bit in pass protection.  
  • In that same drill, tight end Lee Smith proved he could be more than just a blocking tight end.  On an out route, he used a double-fake that literally caused Gary Guyton to fall over.  Speaking of linebackers, the most solid in coverage on the day was certainly Rob Ninkovich.  No matter what defensive scheme the Patriots are in, Ninkovich will seemingly be up and on his feet.
  • The rookie running backs looked pretty solid today.  Ridley comes as advertised.  He's big, strong, and looks like he will be tough to bring down.  Shane Vereen, looks solid and bigger than I would have expected.  During team work, he made a ton of catches and considering this was his first practice, I'm certainly impressed.
  • Tight end Carson Butler looks like a solid receiving tight end, although he had one pretty bad drop in team work.
  • Chad Ochocinco looks like he's becoming more comfortable in the Patriots offense.  He had the play of the day, hauling in a long sideline catch from Tom Brady.  He jumped in the air, wrestled the ball from Brandon Meriweather who nearly had the interception, and fell to the ground while securing the catch.  A few plays later, Ochocinco had back-to-back catches with Devin McCourty in coverage.  The first was on an out, where Ochocinco made a nice toe-tap to secure the catch.  The next play was on a crossing route over the middle.  You can definitely feel the excitement with the Brady-Chad connection, with the crowd cheering each time he makes a grab.

More practice notes after the jump!

Star-divide

  • It wasn't a bad day for McCourty.  Even though Ochocinco beat him twice, he stuck stride-for-stride with him on a couple of deep throws, forcing the incompletion.
  • On one play, Darnell Jenkins made a nice sideline catch on a Ryan Mallett throw.  Mallett showcased his arm at times, but he was also erratic on some throws.
  • Aaron Hernandez is one of those guys that just stands out.  He is a great player, and is virtually uncoverable.  I love watching him run routes and beat safeties, linebackers, whoever.
  • While I got to see a fair amount of offensive drills, lets be clear on one thing: the offense isn't "there" yet.  Neither side is.  But from what I can see, the offense seems to be lagging a little bit with completions down the field very hard to come by.

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Awesome notes, Greg.

I’m very much looking forward to seeing the triumvirate of Bodden, Dowling, and McCourty. If they can consistently cover the other teams’ three main receivers, it could mean even bigger things for Haynesworth and the other pass rushers.

It matters not how strait the gate, nor charged with punishments the scroll:
I am the Master of my fate. I am the Captain of my soul.

by BigRussNovak on Aug 2, 2011 6:17 PM EDT reply actions  

I have already said that throwing into the Patriot secondary will be challenging. And you guys don’t know how bad big Al can be on the line. I’ve watched him for a long time. He will wreck quite a few things.

by Patriots12 on Aug 2, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

totally totally agree

and conversely, the combination of Albert and Vince (do you double team both?) should really amp our pass rush, which means more hurried throws that are easier for McCourty, Bodden & Co. to pick off.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

does comcast show some of these tapes on On Demand?
and are there ticket giveways like T-Mobile and Celtics before last year ?

by SDK on Aug 2, 2011 6:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Keep hearing good things on Taylor Price. Hope that continues. Haven’t heard Brandon Tate’s name a lot.

by Patriots12 on Aug 2, 2011 6:28 PM EDT reply actions  

He didn't do much

Looked to be body-catching and even dropped a pass

by Greg Knopping on Aug 2, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the observations

looking forward to more throughout the week. I’m hoping Lee Smith workss out as having a completely revamped TE will help us for years. How is Taylor Prices route running? He is another guy I hope makes the cut.

It’s gonna suck, we are going to lose a lot of good players when the cuts come around, and lose some very good players just to have depth at other positions. It seems like it’s worse this year than ever…..

by TheSTBadly on Aug 2, 2011 6:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I hope Darnell Jenkins stays a lot of people are sleeping on that kid,but if he gets reps he can be a good receiver.

by businessbmw on Aug 2, 2011 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Darnell Jenkins looks good,

but he’s like the one guy wearing the red shirt in the group that goes down to the planet with Captain Kirk, Spock and Dr. McCoy. You just know he’s not going to make it.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on Aug 2, 2011 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

lmao

Deep in enemy territory

by JeffyB on Aug 2, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

being from florida, i watched Jenkins a lot white at UM, I even went to UM vs USF game, I consider him a better receiver than Brandon Tate. the Kid is really a grind it out type player, he is tough as nails.

by businessbmw on Aug 2, 2011 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Perfect analogy.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

the painful cuts

are unfortunately an inevitable side effect of all the draft pick trading that BB has done.

He’s parlayed trades into such a surplus number of 2nd & 3rd rd picks these last couple of years and then compounded the ‘problem’ by making excellent choices with those picks, eventually we run into the situation where we literally have too many good players. Obviously, that is a good ‘problem’ to have. But it does make the cuts painful.

Its kind of why I was calling for Bill to this year to just go ahead and use his first round picks, going for peak quality instead of quantity for a change. He of course, didn’t listen entirely to me … I’m not sure why.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

And a competitive team, at that.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

definitely

I"m glad Bill doesn’t always listen to me!

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Empty set should be fun this year

Ocho, Branch, Welker, Gronk, and Hernandez running wild. Five completely different types of receiver. What team has the personnel to cover that?

by CarpCarter on Aug 2, 2011 6:46 PM EDT reply actions  

The Hall of Fame team.

But… that’s about it.

It matters not how strait the gate, nor charged with punishments the scroll:
I am the Master of my fate. I am the Captain of my soul.

by BigRussNovak on Aug 2, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was about to say the Eagles

and then I remembered they don’t have any linebackers and are counting on a rookie safety to start. Yay lots of non-tackling CBs though?

Deep in enemy territory

by JeffyB on Aug 2, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gronk looks up

and marks down Week 12 on the calendar.

Grins.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Eagles signed Jarrad Page, unfortunately

He’s pretty useful at covering TEs. I was hoping he’d re-sign, but the Eagles are suddenly the place to be.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gronk looks over the line, sees his buddy Hernandez

who grins back …

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

I’d like to see Woody (or Vereen?) split out wide and catch a screen in front of DRC or Asante. That’s going for 10+.

Deep in enemy territory

by JeffyB on Aug 3, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

apparently

The signed Ronnie Brown away from the Dolphins too.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on Aug 3, 2011 6:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

one eagle looks like he's down

“Eagles DT Mike Patterson taken off on a backboard and leaving the practice field via ambulance. Eagles shaken by the scene. Update to come.”

by bizarrowelker on Aug 3, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you know how Cunningham did on the outside Greg? If we are moving to 4-3, I'd like to see how he is.

I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP

by Jack'sAxe on Aug 2, 2011 7:31 PM EDT reply actions  

thanks.

I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP

by Jack'sAxe on Aug 2, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about Spike's in the 4-3?

Are they experimenting with him at all as an OLB? Or has he even been on the field with they are practicing their 4-3 sets?

by DrJgopatsgators on Aug 2, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like hearing your take on practice Greg

I agree with you about Bodden. He looks like he hasn’t missed a beat – he’s quick and he stays right on target.

It is hard to evaluate some of the players because when a mistake happens, without the benefit of replay, sometimes it’s not clear who was at fault – the QB, the O-line, or a WR, RB or TE running the wrong route – or the defense could simply be that good.

Spikes was explosive too. When he was out there with Wilfork and Haynesworth, he was especially quick at getting through (gee, I wonder why).

The O-line has been clearly inferior to the D-line, but I’m cutting them some slack until Matt Light and Logan Mankins return to help them out.

The talk is on how the defense on the whole has an edge this year on the offense [so far], but keep in mind that there is no Randy Moss at camp this year either. Moss was a huge presence in his years here and the defense has an advantage just by virtue of his absence.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on Aug 2, 2011 8:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Your thoughts on Ochocinco?

I thought he looked the most explosive and physical of any Patriots receiver

by Greg Knopping on Aug 2, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Really sharp, and so quick off the line. Hard worker. He spent a bit of time between drills going over points with Brady, Branch and others too. I feel better and better about him as a Patriot each time I watch them practice and have no doubt he’ll be where Brady wants him come game time.

Keep the faith!

by Marima on Aug 2, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mayo/Spikes + Wilfork + Haynesworth

is a recipe for vicious backfield penetration.

I lived in Baltimore and watched the 2000 Ravens superbowl run that was fueled by the combination of Ray Lewis behind Tony Siragusa and Sam Adams.

This should be similar.

When you have two – not one, but TWO – DL who command double-team blocks, that is an ENORMOUS advantage to the defense. It frees up the linebackers to do pretty much whatever the hell they want.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Offense always lags.

Fact.

"Every time I call it a game, you call it a business. Every time I call it a business, you call it a game."

by JohnHannahRules on Aug 2, 2011 8:21 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah, its one of those consistent truisms about pro football

it is easier to put together the personnel for an offense (hence so many bad teams have explosive offenses and lousy defenses) but when you HAVE the personnel for a good defense, they usually click immediately.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Offense relies on timing.

Much harder to come in playing like it’s week 15 on O than D, because they can just react.

"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West

by ISN on Aug 3, 2011 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

How did Chung look today?

Hoping that this year he takes a big jump at his natural position rather than cover slot receivers because we are short-handed. He has big play ability written all over him.

by Brady's Revenge on Aug 2, 2011 8:34 PM EDT reply actions  

How much 30-front time?

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 2, 2011 8:43 PM EDT reply actions  

True

but then again, my impression was they used a lot of 4-man fronts in last year’s preseason, too.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 2, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Defensive Alignment

Were you able to notice what type of defensive formations they were using? Or are you not allowed to report on that?

I have a suspicion that they’re moving away from the 3-4, but not to a 4-3 but rather a 4-2-5 base with a hybrid safety/linebacker playing on the early downs and a cornerback on obvious passing downs. It would be consistent with trends that the Pats have used in sub packages in recent years, how they’ve played passing teams like the Colts, the constant search that Belichick has explored for the last 4 training camps of the safety/linebacker hybrid, the fact Matt Patricia was moved from linebackers coach to safeties coach, and the lack of addressing the OLB problem. It would allow them to play to their strengths (DBs, Mayo/Spikes/Guyton/Fletcher, D-line) while minimizing their weakness with the OLBs. I’d be curious to see if I’m on to something, or just wrong as usual….

by Hammer of Thor on Aug 2, 2011 9:16 PM EDT reply actions  

The media isn't allowed to say, I think

One of the rules of watching practice, I believe

by Chari on Aug 2, 2011 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't report on schemes

But it looks like something from when the Patriots went to 4-man fronts in 2009. Personally, I like the idea of constantly shifting between 3-4, 4-3, and nickel/dime packages

by Greg Knopping on Aug 2, 2011 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

But I certainly don’t want to get you in trouble, so say no more!

by Hammer of Thor on Aug 2, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s hope the PATS and O’Brien buy into their RB’s and RUN the football this year as a legitimate threat versus a break from passing. They have solid RB’s, phenominal TE’s, huge OL, and Brady. That combination should spark a serious running attack. Brady requires safeties and DB’s to cover first. That is the little edge that can almost guarentee a 4 yard gain with the TE’s assisting on the LB’s.

by OneOpinion on Aug 2, 2011 10:11 PM EDT reply actions  

The Pats have been top-10 rushing the ball for the last few years

And Benny had 10 rushing TDs (let alone the other RBs). Not sure what you’re suggesting when you say they’re not using it as ‘a threat’. Double-digit TDs suggest they’re pretty committed, personally.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 2, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Pat's O-line has been a dominant run-blocking line for several years now

and 2010 was a very good running year.

On the other hand, despite good overall running numbers, 2009 was very frustrating how often O’Brien abandoned the running game in the second half of so many games. And while last year seemed like an improvement in that area, I still feel like he gives up on the run too soon.

We definitely ran the ball more consistently under McDaniels. Over 2200 yds rushing in 2008.

Pats rushing totals, yd/attempt and 1st downs by rushing, by year:

2010 1973 4.3 119
2009 1921 4.1 114
2008 2278 4.4 145
2007 1849 4.1 124
2006 1969 3.9 121

The consistent 4+ yds per carry is indicative of the team’s consistent ability. The drop-off in 1st downs achieved by rushing is somewhat indicative of the drop-off in utilization under O’Brien versus McD.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

2008 is skewed for two reasons

1) Cassel < Brady, so they wanted to run more to take the ball out of Cassel’s hands; and
2) Cassel himself ran it for something like 275 yards on QB scrambles. So really, the Pats were back to 1900 yards or so on ‘designed’ rushes – the extra rushing yardage was on broken passing plays.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree somewhat on the impact of point (2)

Cassel’s scrambles (270 yds) don’t account for a difference of 2+ rushing first-downs per game.

Interestingly, in both 2006 and in 2007, Brady rushed/scrambled for ~100 yds. However, since Brady came back, though, in 2009 & 2010 he only rushed for 44 & 30 yds.

Perhaps a reluctance to risk Brady on sneaks (which would affect the rushing 1st down numbers) is in play since then.

I do agree with point (1) as to why they ran more. But the fact is, they determined to run more that year and they did. Extremely well.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Difference being...

Sneaks are designed rushing plays, whereas most of Cassel’s were because he held the ball too long (as any young QB is prone to do) and then made plays with his feet. It’s a broken pass play rather than one designed with a run in mind.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

um. I know that.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Pats

I have always felt the PATS will pass on 3rd down if it’s over 2 yards. That Colts game (loss) was not the exception. That, to me, is the norm. And, I feel it defines them as a pass first team.

Do you feel otherwise?

Not talking stats, but as a fan what do you expect on 3rd and 2+ yards? Perhaps I am in the minority, but I expect a pass. I just sense that the opponent feels as I do.

As for BJGE’s 10 TD’s, I don’t see that as a defining factor for a run mindset. Most teams hand it off at least once inside the 10 yard line.

I think a run mindset is defined by a team that RUNS on 3rd and short more than they pass. I might be mistaken, but I sense that the PATS PASS on 3rd and short more often. To me, that is the decision which should be changed. I feel that is the way to beat the Jets and Colts. Use the massive TE’s and pound the ball on 3rd and short.

by OneOpinion on Aug 3, 2011 6:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty much every team passes on third down with 2+ yards to go

I actually figured that if the Pats were going to go for it on 4th down (and it was clearly a gameplan that they would), then the should have run it on 3rd, and then 4th down (if necessary). But that was O’Brien’s rookie season as co-ordinator, so it’s hard to say it’s a mentality issue as it is a rookie co-ordinator mistake.

The Pats ran it 10+ times for TDs in the Red Zone. They’re clearly not gun-shy – I think Benny only ran for one TD that was 20 yards or over. They clearly have committed to running it in the obvious run situations, and they do so well.

The other thing is you’re ignoring the personnel issue. When you need 2 yards to win the game, you go to your go-to guys – that’s pretty much the definition, after all. And those guys on the Pats (especially two years ago in that Colts game) were Kevin Faulk and Wes Welker. Unsurprisingly, they went to one of the two go-to guys; and even then, I’m not sure it didn’t work – I still think Faulk might’ve got his two yards.

The third thing to keep in mind is that short passes to Faulk (or Welker) are basically long handoffs. It’s not called the “run game”, but it might as well be. It’s not like Brady’s swinging it 50 yards downfield; it’s effectively a toss or sweep, but overarm and occasionally forward.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 7:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty much

Agreed. The slot passes and slants were their running game with Givens and others. And, I also agree that 3rd and short decisions should factor in 4th down as part of the decision. If you intend on going for it on 4th down, then a 3rd down run makes more sense to chew up more clock (assuming you’re ahead).

I hope you’re correct that the PATS do use the run as a primary attack and not merely as a filler between passes. In Brady’s early years, they pounded the ball with ?(Smith) and then Dillon the following year. Those were power backs and Andruzzi was a formidable OL.

This team with these massive TE’s, Mankins, and Vollmer should be very capable of pounding out 3+ yards on average especially if this RB collection meets expectations. Brady’s health is critical. The PATS have retooled to where I could easily see repeat Super Bowls with this present team. But, Brady must stay on his feet, and a running attack that is emphasized and drilled to perfection is the key to his health.

Do you anticipate more runs than passes this season?

I feel this should be the goal. Each game should be assessed by this key stat, and how often the PATS ran for a first down when the yardage was under 3 yards. If they establish this mindset and defenses expect a run, the play action will be far more effective, and Brady will stay on his feet. This design will also play nicely into those slot screens and short slants.

by OneOpinion on Aug 3, 2011 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sure partly it was a reflection of their run-game

Benny’s good for 4 yards a pop, never loses any, and rarely breaks 10+. Woodhead has the speed to scamper for a long TD, but he’s not really a between-the-tackles runner, so he’s limited too.

You only have so many touches you can really give an RB. Let’s say Benny gets 20. You could have Benny run his customary 4ypc at midfield 20 times and pick up 80+ yards at midfield, but then have him tired and battered for no particular reason, or you could run him 20 times in both the offensive and defensive Red Zones at 4ypc, and get valuable yardage there.

With the addition of Vereen and Ridley, you’ve got: a) a guy who can take it to the house from midfield, running between the tackles, in Vereen, and b) a guy who can take some of those Red Zone snaps off Benny in Ridley.

That means you can rededicate to the run through addition by subtraction – you can give Benny snaps when it’s useful, give Ridley snaps when it’s useful, and give Vereen snaps when you could potentially get a big gain. Woody and/or Faulk do the pass-pro and shotgun snaps (and Vereen probably gets some, too).

Spread the load, and they’ll all run more effectively, and do it from mid-field, too.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes we should all keep in mind that injuries have been a factor

Losing Taylor, Sammy, Faulk, etc., etc. variously for long stretches these last couple of years kinda affects what you can ‘show’ to the defense in regards to run v pass.

I also totally agree that we do use the short pass game as effectively a ball-control running game.

But you can’t deny that there have been times in recent history when this team really needed to just pound the rock and keep the clock moving and failed to do so. When you fail to complete those short passes in those situations, you lose more than the failure to advance the ball. You stop the clock.

Strategically, you should game plan so that even if you don’t successfully execute what you want to do, you help your opponent as little as possible. Being able and determined to run the ball in those situations should be a big part of the toolbox.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

But the inclination to “pound the rock” when it’s necessary or desirous isn’t the same as a “run-first offence”. Run-first is becoming the Jets of two years ago or the Ravens of two years ago or the Giants of 2007. Not sure that’s a good thing. Running effectively isn’t the same as running all the time.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've been reading this debate, and I think I agree with both of you.

I think both of you also probably agree with a lot of what the other is saying as well, but maybe not all of it.

In any case I agree with mmmmm that I’d love to see the Pats be able to pound the rock on a 3rd and 2, or at the goalline. I’d love to see them grind down the clock in the second half with a lead. A good to great running game is possible with this team’s backs, lineman, and tight-ends.

However, Tom Brady is our best player. And you want the ball in his hands. This is and always will be, while TB is here, a “pass-first” offense. I like using the short passing game, almost like it’s a running game. I like seeing slants, and screens, and bubble-screens, etc.

In short, I’d love to see the running game improve, for when we need it, or when it’d be benificial to us.

However, I’d also like to see us stick to excelling in the passing game in order to score points, and win games.

by UtopianAverage on Aug 3, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Basically, be able to call any play you want, whenever and whereever you want, and have it succeed.

Nothing worng with that.

The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.

by SlotMachinePlayer on Aug 3, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. My take on it isn't about 'run first' vs 'pass first'.

It’s about emphasizing one or the other when it makes sense to do so.

Our most talented player is our QB and our most efficient way to build a lead is the passing game. So duh-uh, most of the time we should be passing.

But we also happen to have a fantastic run-blocking OL and talented backs. This team is perfectly capable of running the ball effectively when they decide to do so. And my point is that there are times when they should have decided to do so but did not over the last couple of years.

Using up the clock is a legitimate and necessary tactical component of football. You can’t be so cute that you think you don’t need to run the ball to do that. Falling too much in love with the passing game is ‘man with a hammer’ syndrome. If you’ve got a perfectly good wrench in the toolbox and the job calls for using a wrench, why are you swinging the hammer around?

I put that on the play calling, not on the players.

Last year was less full of such incidents than 2009. I hope we see less and less of such silliness this year.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh

I think the running game has been pretty good over the last couple years. However, the team has struggled to run during obvious run situations. So they have relied more on the pass. I feel like you are saying that it is during these times they need to run more. But if your team is ineffective at these situations it only makes sense to switch it up. Hopefully the new linemen coming in are better run blockers during these situations.

by Oughat on Aug 4, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, you are mistaking my point.

Our OL already HAS been very good at run blocking these last few years. It isnt a problem of needing better run blockers (though improvement in anything is always welcome).

When we decide to run, we have been good at running. The problem I am alluding to is a tendency to try to use the pass in certain situations where running makes a ton more sense. Specifically, late in games with a lead when you want the clock to run. Yes you can ‘ball control’ with the short passing game. But it is a fundamental of the game: A dropped pass stops the clock. A stuffed running play still runs the clock.

Far too often the last couple of years in these situations we have often gotten too cute for our own good, trying to pass our way through instead of, as you say, switching it up.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 4, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I probably did miss your main point initially.

And I do agree.

Although I think the reason for it may be something I somewhat alluded to earlier.

Yes, we have relied on the pass in situations where it didn’t make sense to do so. Possibly due to two reasons, one is an inexperienced playcaller, and two is TFB.

Maybe, in the clutch, when you need to maintain the ball, inexperienced B O’B decided to stick with TB12 and pass when he SHOULD HAVE ran the ball.

Your point is valid. We should have ran the ball, and we should run the ball in those situations in the future.

As well, the mistake is understandable. When you need to maintain the ball, and control the clock, why not rely on your best player to do so?

by UtopianAverage on Aug 5, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Faulk converted.

"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West

by ISN on Aug 3, 2011 7:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

Unfortunately that reality doesn’t get in the way of the chorus of BB-hatin’ mediot critics.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

When was the first day of TC?

We got what we could afford at DT, not because of a brilliant plan, but because of a budget. We can still be happy about Brodrick Bunkley and Ty Warren without the homerism and excuses.

by Rodney A on Aug 2, 2011 10:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Raheem brock or matt roth which one gets signed if not both ?

by alweezy61 on Aug 3, 2011 12:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Pats might be in for a play at Osi, potentially

His asking price went down to a second-round pick, and apparently the Pats are one of several interested teams.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

seattle is willing to give them John Carlson as part of a trade.

damn…. I dont know who to give them with a pick…

I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP

by Jack'sAxe on Aug 3, 2011 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

How many second rounds do we have ?

by alweezy61 on Aug 3, 2011 1:02 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

2

Deep in enemy territory

by JeffyB on Aug 3, 2011 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

During the draft, I was talking about drafting the top NT to team up with Wilfork which didn’t happen …

Haynesworth
-—————————-
Teaming up with Vince Wilfork at DT. “It’s going to be scary, scary for other teams. … I went to the Pro Bowl with Vince and the funny thing is, I said ‘What if we were on the same team?’ He was like, ‘That would be crazy, there’s no way that’s going to happen.’ But 2, 3 years later, here we are.”
-—————————
I agree …

I think it is a very powerful move to bring him to the Patriots if both can remain mostly healthy. I think he will have the most significant effect of all the new players.

Philly made the most powerful moves getting Cromartie and Asomigha. The Patriots – Philly game will be very interesting to watch. It may be like playing the Jets secondary.

Running the ball against the Patriots will be brutal for teams. Patriots defense should rack up a lot of sacks this year.

by prioris on Aug 3, 2011 1:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Any gap player

On playing a 3-4 defense and possibly two-gapping. “I’m willing to attack the quarterback, kill the running back, and knock everything back. … I don’t care what it is. Whatever gap the ball is in, that’s the gap I want to be in.”
-——————————-

by prioris on Aug 3, 2011 1:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Which means teams are gonna be running a few draws and other misdirection plays at Albert. Sigh. First 20 yard run he gives up by losing gap responsibility, I get grumpy

by quadruple option on Aug 3, 2011 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's why I'd glue Brandon Spikes to Haynesworth's backside

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Until Brandon goes screaming through the line, decleats the fullback and realises the rb just went by him…

by quadruple option on Aug 3, 2011 4:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Philly is spending like crazy. I see a desperate team who is looking to buy a Super Bowl. Reed must sense his job is on the line for certain, and he has no choice but to purchase anything and everything possible.

Are they mortgaging the future?
Has anyone looked into their long term cap implications?

Interestingly, I feel that the PATS have acquired the best two fits to a team looking to tweak last year’s roster. Haynesworth and Ocho are perfect fits to address a specific need: Moss replacement and a pass rush.

The inside rush is the most important. Collapsing the pocket disallows the QB to step up, and that allows the OLB to get the QB. Ocho draws top DB coverage and a safties interest. Branch draws equal attention. Finally, the PATS are back to their drafted and designed strength: slot and TE mismatches.

by OneOpinion on Aug 3, 2011 6:57 AM EDT reply actions  

Depth implications, I'd imagine

They’re dropping a lot of their $120m salary cap on starters, which is fine. But it means that if someone takes a buzzsaw to their roster via injuries, they go from a potential 14-2 team to a 8-8.

Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit

by Comedic.Sans on Aug 3, 2011 7:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Depth implications

Thanks!

I figured there had to be a significant trade-off with this spending strategy. And, in today’s NFL, depth is crucial. BB does a superb job of stock piling second and third tier players who do an admirable job of stepping in when needed.

I always marvel at BB’s ability to release a Jarrad Page or a Ty Warren since you know that he feels he has someone else who will somehow contribute even more to the overall scheme. And, that contribution probably includes saved money that can be used on a different contract.

by OneOpinion on Aug 3, 2011 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

There are a few one and two year deals though.

Like they realise if they give him the right kind of help, Vick puts them over the top, so create a team that can do it while he can. Now, can he be as effective as he was last year? He probably won’t throw it as well as he did, but he might not need to be a 100 rating QB to win 12+ games with that team. And I still think they’re behind the Packers in that conference.

The good news is, neither team is dominant enough to go 16-0.

"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West

by ISN on Aug 3, 2011 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

"can he be as effective as he was last year?"

Which part of last year?

First half, he had a passer rating of about ~109 (Brady/Manning-like number)
Second half, Vick had a passer rating of about ~89 (slightly above NFL avg).

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Aug 3, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Safe to say,

either half is better than he’d ever passed the ball before. If his rating is high 80s, and everyone else is as productive as the can be, and healthy, they should be a 12 win team.

"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West

by ISN on Aug 3, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

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