A Patriots Stat Guide for Success in 2011
by Ashto12 on Aug 22, 2011 5:56 PM EDT
in Opinion/Analysis
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PrintFollowing the disappointing end to the 2010 NFL season for the New England Patriots, we as fans have spent the ensuing months discussing the key areas in which the Patriots must improve in 2011 in order to make a serious challenge for honours. As Bill Belichick himself would say: there are many ways in which a team can improve. However, it seems a general consensus has been reached that has identified three primary areas of concern for fans going into 2011:
- 1. Improved Pass Rush
- 2. Better Protection for Tom Brady
- 3. Lower Opponents 3rd Down Completion Percentage
I think we can all agree that if the Patriots can improve in these key areas, as well as maintain areas of their game which were strong in 2010 (e.g. turnover differential, offensive red zone efficiency...etc), they will be a very difficult team to face in both the regular season and the playoffs.
In order to judge how successful the Patriots may/may not be in 2011, I will maintain a weekly statistical analysis throughout the regular season (and hopefully playoffs), which focuses on 8 significant statistics. In this article, I will identify these areas together with a target for the Patriots to achieve on either a weekly/annual basis and throughout the season, I will cumulatively analyse the data...
Defensive 3rd Down Efficiency
Something I'm sure most fans were frustrated with in 2010 was the amount of times opponents had a 3rd and long and made a simple looking completion to move the chains. In a bend-but-don't-break defense, it's perhaps unrealistic to expect the lowest percentage in the league, but certainly the Patriots should expect a significant improvement from their 32nd ranked 47.1%. Looking at the final four teams in the playoffs in 2010, all had an average defensive 3rd down efficiency rating that placed them in the top 10 in the league (the mean of the Top 10 in defensive 3rd down efficiency was 34.47%). To achieve this mean would be some drop but certainly the Patriots should be targeting Top 10 statistics. The 10th ranked team in 3rd down defensive efficiency in the last 5 years has had an average efficiency rating of 37.04%.
2010 Defensive 3rd Down Efficiency: 47.1 %
2011 TARGET Defensive 3rd Down Efficiency: 37 %
Number of Sacks (Defense)
I admit to being conflicted about including this statistic in this analysis as it can be somewhat misleading. For example, defenses such as the Patriots and Jets finished with decent sack totals in 2010 (35 and 40 respectively) but both sets of coaches and fans feel their defense didn't get enough pressure on the quarterback. Constant pressure is, in many ways, much more important as a statistic than the sack - but equally hard to quantify. However, the sack is indicative of pressure as a by-product and is a solid barometer for good 3rd down defense, an area where the Patriots need to improve. Anyone disputing the importance of this statistic need only look at 2010: the Steelers and Packers conceded the least points per game in the league (15.0 and 14.5) and not surprisingly, led the league in sacks with 48 & 47 respectively! Significantly, of the 9 teams who finished 2010 with 40+ sacks, 7 of these teams were ranked in the top 10 in defensive 3rd down efficiency. Whilst I would say 40 should be the target, the team is clearly emphasising pass rush, so I would expect a more marked improvement than 5 sacks - a target of 45 would require 2.8 sacks per game (plus the obvious pressure required to achieve this total).
2010 Number of Sacks (Defense): 35
2011 TARGET Number of Sacks (Defense): 45
Rate of Patriot defensive 3-and-outs
Tied in with defensive 3rd down efficiency is that fact that in 2010, the Patriots simply allowed too many drives to go on too long. The 2010 Patriots racked up 32 three-and-outs, or an average of 18.3% of opponent drives ended in 3-and-outs, good for 28th in the league. This means opponents have more time with the ball and in turn, Tom Brady spends more time on the sidelines. As a comparison, the New York Jets were 1st in the league, forcing 63 three-and-outs for a drive average of 32.3% - almost 1 in 3 drives result in a 3-and-out! I appreciate the Patriots have a different defensive philosophy so perhaps the comparison is not apt, but other supposed bend-but-don't break defenses such as the Vikings, Panthers and Colts achieved over 40 3-and-outs and percentages close to 25%, not a huge jump but if we could force 25% of opponent drives into 3-and-outs rather than the current mark of 18%, it could make all the difference, particularly come playoff time.
2010 Rate of Defensive 3-and-outs: 18.3 %
2011 TARGET Rate of Defensive 3-and-outs: 25 %
Defensive Passer Rating
This is a stat we should all now be familiar with, given its historical correlation to Super Bowl winners. It simply averages out QB ratings achieved by opposing QBs against a given defense over the course of the year. Taking the recent history alone, in 2010 the Packers and Steelers were 1st and 2nd in the league respectively with DPR's of 67.23 and 73.78 and in 2009, the Saints were ranked 3rd with a DPR of 68.58. The 2010 Patriots were a mediocre 13th with a DPR of 81.23, meaning on a weekly basis, opposing QBs were having pretty decent games (although some stats were racked up in garbage time once the Pats were 17 points ahead!). In 2011, the Patriots need to at least break into the Top 10 in this statistic but should target the Top 5 given DPR's correlation to Super Bowl winners. In the last five years, the 5th ranked team has averaged a DPR of 73.83, so the target needs to be an approximate 7.5 point reduction.
2010 Defensive Passer Rating: 81.23
2011 TARGET Defensive Passer Rating: 73.80
Opponent Passing Yards Per Attempt
Again, this is another key statistic when analysing how the Patriots defense is faring against opposing passers. Rather than simply looking at yards or even completion percentage, the most effective statistic to monitor is opponents passing yards per attempt. In a bend-but-don't break defense, you can accept a reasonable completion percentage as long as the opponents YPA is low - you are allowing completions but only small completions and not many big plays. In 2010, the New England Patriot defense surrendered a 7.10 YPA to opposing quarterbacks, ranking 21st in the league. To put that into perspective, in 2009 and 2010, as the league has migrated further towards a passing league, the mean of the final four teams in the playoffs each year is 6.41 and 6.48 YPA respectively, indicating the Patriots should be targeting a reduction of over half a yard per attempt. With expected improvements in both pass rush and coverage, this should be achievable.
2010 Opponents Passing YPA: 7.10
2011 TARGET Opponents Passing YPA: 6.45
Defensive Red Zone Efficiency
Defensive red zone efficiency is a vital statistic, particularly come playoff time where points are at a premium. In 2010, the Patriots ranked 22nd in the NFL, allowing opponents to score touchdowns on 56.36% of their red zone visits. However, it's worth noting that the top 3 in the NFL in this category all missed the playoffs (Top 3 in the league are Arizona: 39.13%, Miami: 40.00% and Tennessee: 41.27%). So why include this stat? Well, in the playoffs, points aren't easy to come by and the difference between 3 and 7 can change the outcome of games. Against the Jets in the 2010 Divisional Round, the Patriots defense had an 80% efficiency rating. I include this statistic because the Patriots should seek to make themselves difficult to score against in their own red zone - again, if the defense has an element of bend but don't break, you have to be stout when an opponent gets the ball in the red zone. The Pats should target a 25% reduction with the new talent and scheme.
2010 Defensive Red Zone Efficiency: 56.36%
2011 TARGET Defensive Red Zone Efficiency: 42%
Turnover Differential
It would be unrealistic to set a target that would exceed the historical differential that the 2010 Patriots achieved - a preposterous +27. To achieve this mark, Tom Brady had to set a record for fewest interceptions thrown in a season, together with going on the longest interceptionless streak in football history. However, TO differential is a very important statistic (14-2 would never have happened if it weren't for Brady's ball security and an opportunistic defense) and one which has a direct correlation to NFL success. While 2010 wildly surpassed expectations for this stat, a more prudent target can be obtained in looking at simply history: the Patriots have a tremendous record when winning the turnover battle against opponents, so if the team can average +1 in turnover differential each week (i.e. win the TO battle), history suggests this team will be very successful.
2010 Turnover Differential: +27
2011 TARGET Turnover Differential: +16
Run:Pass Ratio
To me this is an underrated statistic and one which holds vital importance to the Patriots. Since the departure of Randy Moss, the Patriots do not have the ability to simply drop back and make throws that gain chunk yardage since they do not have the speed to stretch the field and generate that much space. Therefore, for this Patriot team to gain chunk yardage, it must be schemed through play action and other such means. Effective play-action relies on a solid and frequent running game, which the Patriots achieved in 2010, where they ran the ball 47% of the time. With no proven field stretchers again in 2011, the Patriots will have to produce another even ratio to gain the big plays. There is no doubt in my mind this team is much more efficient in moving the ball when it has balance. In the playoff loss to the Jets, Brady passed the ball a ridiculous 45 times as opposed to the Patriots running the ball 25 times, perhaps not the best example since the Patriots were playing from behind, but in a game where the Jets carried 11 defensive backs, that game was screaming out for offensive balance and too early the Patriots went away from the run. Similarly in the 2007 Super Bowl, a game that was close right to the end, the Patriots passed the ball 48 times with only 16 runs...in a close game! Most importantly, the run game arguably more than pass protection can help keep the pressure off Brady in the playoffs...
2010 Run:Pass Ratio: 47 : 53
2011 TARGET Run:Pass Ratio: 50 : 50
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Excellent, well-researched article
You have all the stats handy for analysis. Very resourceful.
One thing I’d like to point out is that the 2007 Super Bowl’s run-pass ratio wasn’t a mistake. That whole season was going along to that tune of run-pass ratio. So either that whole season was a mistake or that game was just part of the mix. Like you said, you need a good run-pass ratio when you don’t have a receiver to stretch the field and we had a receiver to stretch the field so you can’t include that game.
Cyril P
cyrilp715@yahoo.com
Awesome article... And right on about 2007 running game issue.
Lots of good information in this article, I’ll be tuning in to see if they hit their goals during the season and playoffs.
For 2007, they were blowing teams away early in the year, with I think a more balanced running attack and Sammy Morris fighting for tough yards. Then Sammy Morris got injured, and I think this was one big reason why teams were able to play us so close. We really could have used him in playoffs and SB. He might not be a lead runner now, but he had a very good season with Maroney in 2007 for the first few games.
Very well written article. Kudos
Lewis Hamilton~ 2011 F1 Champion!!!
Life is about who makes it, not who makes it the fastest! Drive slow homie.
Not that I don't appreciate the effort...
When you are up 28 points in the 4th quarter does defensive 3rd down efficiency matter? Rate of 3 and outs? Defensive passer rating? Hoodie lets you have all the 8 yard passes you want and you lose by 14. These situations skew the data.
Throw out the numbers when the game is out of reach and I think it gives a better representation of actual performance.
by sweetjesusihatethejets on Aug 22, 2011 7:58 PM EDT reply actions
We should keep the #'s for until the Patriots are up 2+ scores
with less than 5 minutes left in the 4th Quarter
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
by freeland1787 on Aug 22, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
you are correct
another point is the Packers/Steelers ’10 stats. They both have excellent defenses that pile up sacks in games that are already over. If an opponent is behind they stop running and start throwing…this presents more “sack opportunities.” The Patriots gave up a million yards in ’10 in games they had already won. This IS the problem with stats. That being said, an excellent article with properly supported points that I agree with. The 2010 Defense was a C+…some quite good and some legit poor.
This year looks like a return to form… grade A.?
they played well when close
and looked bad when it was a blowout- becuz they were trying to keep the players in bounds at the cost of 3-4 extra yards
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
by freeland1787 on Aug 23, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
What really annoys me
is when people are like “look at 2010, see that proves defense wins championships! Steelers and Packers and packers both dominant defenses LOL.”
…if your going to say that, then I’m going to say look at 2009: You had the Dolts, who have little/no defense aside from their DEs, and the Saints, who weren’t much better then the Pats of 2010. Defense does win championships – but no more so then offense.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Aug 22, 2011 8:37 PM EDT reply actions
Teams win championships.
not offense or defense solely.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Agreed. And, ST certainly play a huge role. The PATS loss to Greenbay in the SB was a ST nightmare with return coverage.
As for run/pass ratio, I fully agree that the PATS will be at their best when Brady is able to operate under center more often then from the shot gun. Play action, the quick hitters to the slot receiver, and a strong commitment to the running attack will elevate Brady’s stats ten fold. Given time, he is deadly as a QB. That is why the run and play action are so important. If they force the defense to fear the run, the air attack will be unstoppable.
I also think the PATS do not require the huge homerun bombs. They do so well with underneath routes and YAC which more than make up for the lack of a deep threat. That said, guys like Branch, Ocho, Price, and Tate stretch the field enough to make the underneath receptions 10+ yard gains with YAC factored in.
Just in the first two pre-season games, we saw Price turn a short side line reception into long gain. Hernandez caught a 20 yard side line pass, and he took an underneath pass across the middle for another 20 yards +/- (most of which was YAC). I think they have ample weapons to rack up 20 yard pass gains which, to me, is plenty. Plus, those WR’s are more than capable of hauling in a 50 yard bomb – and they will get some.
I agree/disagree with you
I still think the pats could use a field stretcher (not to the extend that Moss did) for certain teams. I feel Ocho and Price could bring back the big play threat to the passing.
I read an interesting article on Chad’s potential impact in this offense
Where Chad and Price shine is in their route running. This facet of his game could allow the Patriots to be an even more dangerous offense than they were in 2007 or 2010. While Moss was a big, speedy receiver who could catch balls with one hand like it was no big deal, he struggled physically (and maybe even mentally) to run hard routes and go over the middle. This is of no issue to Chad or Price, which could make him more dangerous than Moss in the Patriots system. On one play, either one of them could run a beautiful, crisp ten yard out route, then turn around on the very next play and give the corner a quick out and up and burn him deep. They could give the hard run at the cover two safety, then stop on a dime 15 yards down the field and come-back to the ball. If Wes runs routes that go 7 yards down the field, Chad runs them close to the same level but 20 yards down the field. Having Chad Ochocinco on the offense is like having Wes Welker only taller and faster. The Patriots still have Wes Welker and another damn good route runner in Deion Branch. Someone is bound to be open on every play."
This sets up the Patriots to play like a more open version of the 2010 offense. They have Wes Welker and Deion Branch who are very adept at getting open. Then they have Danny Woodhead, the RB/WR who simply makes plays when he gets the ball in the open field. Then, they have Chad Ochocinco and Taylor Price who can get down field, get open and make the big plays for the team when they need them. Finally, once they get the lead, they pound the ball with BenJarvus Green-Ellis and Stevan Ridley. As long as the offense is efficient and executes, there is zero reason why Tom Brady shouldn’t contend for the MVP again.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
He was original talking about Chad
but I just added Price in there because it also applies to him only he’s a more physical receiver.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
I agree that having a Moss “type” WR would certainly be a fabulous addition. Fortunately, I don’t consider it a hole or a “needed” piece for the PATS to win this season’s SB. And, Price (possibly Tate) could emerge as a legitimate deep threat. They both have the speed.
As others have stated, the closer the PATS get to a 50/50 (pass/run) ratio the better. In particular, if they can run a few shuttle passes and draw plays from the shotgun, that added wrinkle will definitely give D-coordinators nightmares.
Well it's a need as in
to have a complete passing game, but it isn’t a crippling hole (like OLB was). We might still need that field stretcher when we face teams that want to do what the Jets/Packers did (Man Up and commit to taking away the middle of the field/short routes) and actually have the personnel to do it.
Like I though in last couple drives in the TB game we saw that Brady had lots of time but nowhere to go because all the short routes were covered and he ended up having just throwing the ball away or taking a sack. It looked an awful lot like the Jets game. Not saying that is going to be the norm this season (because not a lot of teams can do that consistently), but for the teams that can it may be a problem, especially if we fall behind.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
I think the answer to these tight coverage scenarios that you have described is to incorporate more delayed TE releases into these play designs. Let the TE hold his block for a 4 count before he slips out into the flat or behind the LB’s over the middle. The delay allows the primary receivers time to execute their reads and cuts with the added TE blocking assistance, yet it adds one last option if the coverage is excellent.
The PATS have huge, sure handed TE’s. They’re easier to see than a slot receiver. They’re nearly impossible to defend because of their size and height. No team has a LB, a safety, or a DB that can handle these huge TE’s on short routes in single coverage. Thrown high and/or to the outside shoulder, the pass cannot be defended.
If that the case why didn't we see that in the Jets game last year?
Unless someone has coaches tape of that game we can’t be sure on how the TEs were covered.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
Grink was bocking the entire game (because the OL wasnt enough)
And herndo was just coming off an injury.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I meant last season – not these pre-season games.
I have always favored occasional, delayed releases by the TE after a 3 second count. He chips the DE or OLB, holds his block temporarily, and then he slips out into the flat or over the middle. It can be a very effective safety outlet after Brady has panned the primary targets.
If they are doing these, that’s great. I don’t recall.
I was talking about last post season vs. the jets
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I see. Thanks!
As for that game, so many things went wrong, it is impossible to pinpoint one correction. Perhaps a stronger commitment to double TE’s and a running attack might have been their best chance of fending off the rush and the tight DB coverage.
Did you even watch last year?
The Pats ran a huge number of two-TE sets, and often three TE, especially if you count Hernandez in the slot + two-TEs as three.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Aug 25, 2011 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions
3 seconds is a looooooong time...
The delayed release is Faulk’s turf.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
In of itself, agreed. 3 secs is long.
However, as a release off of a designed blocking assignment, it really plans for itself to happen. If the TE is committed to doubling a DE or an OLB, his role is to assist Brady in panning the primary targets. His role is protection first, delayed release second. He’s really offering one more option before Brady chucks it away.
If he releases, it’s a look back type of route where Brady knows he has this last alternative to dump off a quick pass.
It might gain 2 yards. However, a TE in stride has the size to break these types of short gains for 6 or 7 more yards before help arrives.
Wot.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Aug 25, 2011 3:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Like the one Danny Woodhead took 50 yds against the Jets
The only problem for Brady is who to give the ball to since the result is usually favorable
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
by freeland1787 on Aug 23, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Where was that in the playoff game?
That obviously was the game I was referring to. They didn’t utilize that gameplan when they got blown out by us, but when they beat us.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
My sense, right or wrong, is that the PATS stray from the run when they are behind. As an observer, I expect a pass far more often than a run when they are playing from behind (and I’m not talking 4th qtr). Yet, when I watch the Ravens and the Steelers, I expect a run more often than a pass.
Granted, the QB’s vary in ability, but I wonder if I am correct (% wise). If I am, that would easily explain why Brady finds himself with time and no open receiver – or pressured and sacked with little time.
See I don't think Tom Brady's to blame
I just think it’s the type of offense he’s in. It’s kinda built to play with a lead. The offense is all about ball control, slowly and methodically moving the ball down the field. Sure it can get the big play from Woodhead or one of the TEs from time to time, but mostly it’s a balance of decent runs and short quick timing routes to move the ball down the field with efficiency. And when a team could get a decent lead forcing the patriots to abandon the run, they become one dimensional, thus the D can focus on just taking away the short stuff (if they could) because we didn’t have a WR that could get down the field FAST that they had to account for. They could just commit 8 DBs to clog the middle.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
But coaching was also to blame for that loss too
We should have ran more in that game, they were playing pass all day. And although Brady wasn’t completely to blame, the Jets did confuse him with their rush. We would keep in the TEs to block when we they weren’t rushing and throw them out when they were.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
So thats why I think that Moss type WR
was a need vs certain teams. But now that we have Price/Ocho have a good vertical threat at WR that will stop teams from bring down the safety.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
We do need to stretch the field more.
I think thats what herndo, ocho, and maybe tate/price are here for.
i cant project the starting WR lineup though. I dont see price starting now with branch, ocho, and welker ahead of him.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Well Ocho is here to be that outside WR
If he struggles in that role, like he struggled in Tampa than they’ll give Mr. Price a shot in it (which I think is a slightly better fit).
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
ocho is from the bungles. not tampa. lol
and I dont know how much of a deep threat he can be. And I dont know even if ocho doesnt fill the deep threat role, that they’ll give it to price. ocho can still fill the deion branch role, which was perfectly fine last year.
We’ll see what happens. I love price, but I dont think this is his starting year. Not with our lineup now, and there is still the threat of tate when he fixes his route running. As far as I heard, tate looked great in camp this year.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I was refering to the Tampa Bay game
and I haven’t really heard anything from Tate in camp. If he really was having a great camp I don’t think I would hear so much talk of him being expendable because Slater made a couple nice catches.
And if they gave Tate a shot in that role they should definitely give Price a shot because he has been a STAR in camp and preseason.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
Talk to Marima about Tate.
She was at most of the camps this year. When I asked her about tate and price, she said tate has been looking great.
and tate>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Slater. And its pretty unfair to crown price over tate when you havent even gave tate a shot in preseason. both have been great in camp. I wouldnt call either of them being a start at camp either though.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
yep, right until he started missing camp
then Price just popped out and looked terrific. He really made the most of his increased snaps. Slater, I just don’t feel comfortable with yet as a receiver.
Keep the faith!
should tate be ready for the next preseason game?
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
What? Price has been way better in camp than
Tate. Tell me when you’ve read the words “Brandon Tate displayed great hands and precise route running” . He has NEVER displayed the great hands or the precise route running Price has shown . Not in his first, second, or third camp. Taylor Price has definitely stood out in camp in camp. He is undoubtedly the better WR.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
um... I said IF he displays very good route running
he may be more dangerous than proce. And tate always had very good hands. Just look at him vs. miami last game with that long TD pass from hoyer.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Well that's a big if?
And Tate does not have very good hands imo, he drops way to many catch-able passes and isn’t very reliable, yes SOMETIMES he makes a very amazing catch like MIAMI, but a lot of other times he can’t hold on, so Brady doesn’t look to him a lot. I mean if those are very good hands by your standards than Ben Watson had very good hands because he did the exact same thing.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
price dropped some passes in camp to according to marima.
and pfw and others.
Tates hands are fine. If you have read Hill’s Brandon tate post, most of the throws to Tate were brady’s fault. let me see if i can find the post……….
a link: http://www.patspulpit.com/2011/7/8/2265346/film-friday-talkin-tate
quote underneath:
Brady and Tate need that connection on the deep pass. Re-watching the tape shows that the misfires weren’t all Tate’s fault. In fact, perhaps most of the blame actually rests with Brady. Every time Tate would go deep, Brady would throw extremely off target. Brady would underthrow the ball and he wouldn’t throw the ball far enough ahead of Tate, so that Tate would be forced to make a last second adjustment and the defender would be back in position. Other times, Brady threw the ball so far ahead of Tate that Usain Bolt wouldn’t have a chance of being in position. A lot of the times that Brady would throw the ball, Tate would be open at the release. However,poor ball placement allowed defenders back into the play, or took Tate out of the play completely.
That’s not to say that Tate was never at fault. He dropped an easy pass into the chest against the Detroit Lions and he let a ball hit the ground against the Steelers. However, most of the missed deep passes were a result of a poor connection between the quarterback and the receiver.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
That's one of the problems of watching at camp
It’s hard to know who made the mistake.
In one drill the tight ends were being covered one-on-one as they went out for a pass. Will Yeatman had his batted away so I thought it was a win for the defender until Belichick walks over all annoyed and says “Let him catch the ball!”
I still couldn’t tell what the point of that drill was but I know it wasn’t for the defender to actually break up the pass.
Keep the faith!
Might've been a test of whether the D player could slap it out of the hands
Rather than attack it in the air.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Aug 24, 2011 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Here some of the notes on Price from this camp.
This provides some legitimate evidence that Price if Ocho doesn’t pan out might get a chance at that spot this season.
In the 7-on-7 passing period, Brady executed a perfect pump-fake completion to Price, who ran a brilliant in-and-up pattern. The initial move by Price, pretending he was headed across the field from the left, froze the safety, Brandon Meriweather, giving Price the necessary room (about five years) to haul in Brady’s precisely-thrown lob for a 60-yard touchdown.
The second-year receiver has been a stud on offense in camp
Mallett showed off his arm and connected on the play of the day when he found Taylor Price deep down the right sideline beating Turner in group work. Price caught the 50-plus yard bomb for the big gain, although he may have stepped out of bounds before trotting into the end zone for the score.
Taylor Price had another solid day, and continues to get a lot of deep chances down the field. He just missed on what could have been the play of the day when he made a nice adjustment on a poorly thrown deep ball by Hoyer, but failed to catch the ball after getting in position to do so.
Price once again had one of the plays of the day when he leaped to catch a Brady pass down the left sideline, getting up over Bodden for the ball and landing inbounds on his backside. Price seems to be building confidence, and some rapport with his quarterback.
I’m sorry if I missed Tate making any plays like these, but I think it’s fair after seeing Tate play all of last season and not hearing anything different about him in the small time that he did practice to crown Price the better player
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
by Chris Kole on Aug 23, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tate and Price are two different types of receivers
end of story
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
by freeland1787 on Aug 23, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
WTF?
What do you even mean by that?
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
You do realize that Marima attended numerous practices right?
So any opinion on who looked good was first hand knowledge.
right.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Jack do you know that August 23rd practice was Tate's first practice
in over 2 weeks? So i am not sure what you have been told, but he has hardly been out there. I have yet to see a Reiss piece, in regards to Tate in practice. At least other than to say another missed practice by Tate. I hope he and Price have stellar years, but to claim Tates been doing something of notice in practice is false my friend.
Lewis Hamilton~ 2011 F1 Champion!!!
Life is about who makes it, not who makes it the fastest! Drive slow homie.
by PatNation85 on Aug 24, 2011 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Well that would surely explain why
I haven’t heard Tate doing anything notable.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
He has been hurt for a significant part.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Aug 24, 2011 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions
he was in camp before earlier when the lcokout was lifted, than was injured after a couple weeks.
He returned to practice yesterday.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
He was only in camp for a short time
which was a shame for him, but Price took advantage of the extra reps.
It’s similar with the Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley situation. Ridley took full advantage of Vereen’s absence and I don’t know how a rookie gets that time back.
Keep the faith!
Yes I do and I have followed more than one site
to see who’s been standing out in training camp including Pats Pulpit and haven’t read/heard much if anything on Brandon Tate doing anything notable, but that hasn’t been the case for Price which many people including Greg Knopping (who has really posted more practice notes) had in their notes making lots of plays every other practice.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
Gerg Knoppong notes came when tate was off the field injured.
Earlier, Tate was doing very well, but all eyes were not on him.
mike reiss even interviewed him:
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
*knopping
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Well than can you provide a link to articule
before he got injured. Because even then I didn’t read anything about him making plays
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
Havent seen any training camp notes
but I believe marima. We’ll see how tate does in preseason, but its amazing that your willing to shut him down because he MAY threaten prices job. He was very good last season considering brady threw off target to him a lot, and I think we’ll see a good improvement from him compared to last year.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Shut him down?
He wasn’t that good last year at all. He rarely got separation and when he did he couldn’t adjust to the deep ball, and even when he did get a quality ball he wouldn’t make the catch half the time. I’m sorry if being a little impatient , but until he proves he can be a good NFL WR (not a good return man playing WR) which he hasn’t I’m not seeing him beating out a guy that’ has shown clear ability at WR since he 1st came to camp in his rookie year.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
I'm just being real.
He was never a good receiver in College. He never caught more than 25 balls and after seeing him last season show no improve as the season were on despite him getting tons on game experience, and not hearing any good things in training camp it’s becoming kind of clear that Tate won’t be a good WR at least in NE. I haven’t wrote him off completely, but I’m about 65% sure the guy’s a bust. Now he can prove me wrong in this upcoming pre-season game by showing improved route running, great hands, rapport with Brady etc. and I HOPE HE DOES, but that’s most likely not the going to be case and he’ll only prove me right.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
he was a 1st round prospect before his injury in college
and was considered by tar heel fans to be much better than hakeem nicks, so dont say he was never a good receiver in college.
here, read the article: http://www.patspulpit.com/2011/7/8/2265346/film-friday-talkin-tate
Last year was not all his fault by any stretch with most of the balls thrown to him. He was really good until they told him to fill the moss role. here is a segment of the article:
Brady and Tate need that connection on the deep pass. Re-watching the tape shows that the misfires weren’t all Tate’s fault. In fact, perhaps most of the blame actually rests with Brady. Every time Tate would go deep, Brady would throw extremely off target. Brady would underthrow the ball and he wouldn’t throw the ball far enough ahead of Tate, so that Tate would be forced to make a last second adjustment and the defender would be back in position. Other times, Brady threw the ball so far ahead of Tate that Usain Bolt wouldn’t have a chance of being in position. A lot of the times that Brady would throw the ball, Tate would be open at the release. However,poor ball placement allowed defenders back into the play, or took Tate out of the play completely.
That’s not to say that Tate was never at fault. He dropped an easy pass into the chest against the Detroit Lions and he let a ball hit the ground against the Steelers. However, most of the missed deep passes were a result of a poor connection between the quarterback and the receiver.
Your not being realistic until you know the full story.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Better than Nicks at WR?
Now that’s a joke. You can make an argument was a better player in college because of his STs impact, but c’mon the stats don’t lie.
Look at his Production compared to Tate.
The 6-2 wideout has had three productive years with the Tar Heels. As a freshman in 2006 he caught 39 passes for 660 yards, both records for a North Carolina freshman. As a sophomore he caught 74 passes for 958 yards and five touchdowns. His 958 yards ranked third all-time in UNC history. He shattered the record in 2008, tallying 1,222 receiving yards. He also set a record with 12 touchdown receptions. Even with playing just three years, Nicks has been the most prolific receiver in Tar Heel history. Nicks is not a pure speed receiver, but he has certainly been productive
Notice he was improving every year and it was clear as a freshman he was a good WR (if they don’t bite as a puppy their not going to bite as a dog)
Brandon Tate’s most impressive year was in 2008 where he caught 16 passes for 376 yards in five games. And that’s with defenses paying most attention to Nicks.
If you wanna blame Tate’s lack of production at WR (just like in college) on our 1st ballet HoF QB who won MVP that year then go ahead. But we’ll see who’s right before the season starts. Just remember I told you so if no when he’s no where near as impressive as Price on Saturday
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
defenses paying more attention to knocks? please. thats an excuse if I ever saw one.
Atate was a first round prospect in college before his injury. This was well known to tar heel fans, AND to the media.
And yes, I will blame brady. Know why? Because its not tate’s fault when brady over throws, or misses tate completely. its ALSO not tates fault where they changed his rout tree ever since moss left.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Tate was hurt in college
Remember, that’s why he slipped down the draft – he was carrying injuries, and that’s why he was a redshirt rookie.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Aug 25, 2011 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions
yep.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
And another thing to note
The WR position usually doesn’t take awhile to develop, you can usually tell who going to be something within their 1st couple seasons. And most importantly THEY SHOW IMPROVEMENT. I remember watching Price in the pre-season last year and remember thinking to myself
“wow this kid has ability, he had a productive career in college in a bad offense, he was sticking out as a WR in camp before he started missing time,and in his last preseason game, in which he only had a limited amount of snaps he caught 4 balls, and he could have caught 7 if he kept his feet in bound for a few. Good players usually show they’re good players when you give them the opportunity.
And later in the season he gets another shot (doesn’t start) plays just about 30 snaps, but gets 4 catches and shows good hands and routes.
Now he comes back to camp with more precise routes and better hands and starts consistently making plays. That pretty much sold me that he was going to be at worst the 4th WR. And his pre-season performance against the Jags especially since he got to start the whole half, didn’t surprise me.
The point is the good ones usually show what they got early within the 1st couple seasons and bad ones don’t. And if a guy in 2 seasons and a training camp hasn’t convinced you of their abilities or shown improvement then IMO it’s not being cruel to doubt them until they do. Mayo, Gronk, McCourty, Hernandez, Elderman, Woodhead, Hoyer and now Price have all shown they can play when they’ve gotten chances in the pre-season and regular season. Brandon Tate has even done that at KR, but not at WR
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
tate had one season to work with. So
in your theory, he has another year.
When I watched tate’s film in college, I saw a guy that reminded me of Ediie Royal/a faster anquan boldin. Tate burned guys not only by his speed, but by his quickness, which was surprising to see. he caught difficult balls, as well as easy ones. Hakeem knicks was very good in college, but tate had much much more potential than knicks ever had. Knicks does not have tates combined speed and quickness.
Than his injury came, and after that season we selected him in the 3rd round.
Brady mis fired at tate a lot last year. Even brady is human. and changing tates route tree did not help him either. HE cant fill in moss’s shoes.
and edelman? he hasnt shown anything at all! He has shown some potnetial, but he hardly saw the field, so I have no idea where you are saying he is already a good WR.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Elderman has a little different situation
His lack of production as a WR in college is kind of due to the fact that well he was a QUARTERBACK! This is not only his third year in the NFL, it’s his 3rd year PLAYING THE POSITION. And even so I never said Elderman was a better WR, but then again I would probably take him before I take Tate. I said he showed how good he can be when he was given the opportunity. 1st preseason game comes out gets 5 Recs for 37 yds, not bad for a QB playing WR. Then in next game he got injured, but came back in week 2 and had 8 catches for nearly 100 YDs!! How is that nothing. Then he kinda gets banged up, so he see’s less snaps, but in last game of the season they give him a shot since Welker got injured and guess what happens.
10 catches for 103 YDs!
In his rookie year and 1st year playing WR none the less. And in the very next game 6 recs for 44 Yds and 2 TDs. Then next season, he steps in the 1st pre-season game and dominates doesn’t even play the whole game and gets 6 recs for 90 yds. Tate in that same game got 1 rec for 20 yds, next game 2 recs for 25 yds, next game 2 recs for 17 yds, next game does nothing. I CAN ADD UP HIS CATCHES AND YARDS IN THOSE 4 GAMES AND IT STILL WON’T EQUAL EDELMAN 1ST GAME IN HIS 2ND YEAR AT PLAYING THE POSITION!!! Thats ridiculous.
I mean it writes itself.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
Also I due remember hearing
from camp that he had Welker’s quickness and was very “electrifying” at WR. So even then he showed his stuff
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
that was in his first year. anyways.....
im talking about edelman in the nfl. He has HARDLY played, yet you are already sold on him. He has to stay healthy in order to make some production. And its PRESEASON. We dont take production from preseason seriously. its all about the offense and defense (on both teams) analyzing who they have. They dont really gameplan for anyone.
And like I said, Its pretty hard to catch something when:
A) Your not being thrown to
B) The pass is out of your reach (like hill has said, brady over shot him, and missed him many times last year)
C) When we have welker, branch, hernandez, gronk on the team.
Tate has done well. Not great, well. Im saying that IF he gets his route running down, AND picks up some chemistry between him and brady, tate can be much more dangerous than price simply because his combination of speed and quickness are very very good. But its useless because of those 3 I listed above.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
But the Brady thing still doesn't explain
the lack of doing anything in the pre-season and in camp. Brady hasn’t been throwing to him this whole time. I am definitely not the only one that thinks Tate hasn’t been good at WR. Lots of people agree with me that his production has been average at best at WR. And they not just putting all on Brady and other players like you are. And really his speed has only shown itself in open space. He doesn’t use his speed to get separation from a defender or beat a guy down field for the deep ball. If he did Brady would have been able to hit him. He doesn’t accelerate fast enough into his top speed.
Jack you can’t convince me that Tate isn’t the 6th most valuable WR
at this point. Unless he does something amazing Saturday then don’t expect a lot us to change our opinion. I still think he’ll make the roster. but I’m 95% sure he won’t overtake price without an injury.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
he was hardly in camp. there you go.
and im not putting all the blame on brady.
He does use his speed to get separation. But its not that easy.
I dont think you represent everyone. I think we all know tate has potential. I think Tate has done an okay job last year, but some blame must be put on brady and the routes the OC had him do.
I think when he fixes his route running woes, and gets some rhythm with brady, he can possibly be more dangerous.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Fine some blame can be put on Brady
but really I don’t put much into that. We’ll see how Tate develops, but just remember I told you so if he can’t get away from his defender and doesn’t get a lot of catches against the Lions.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
Its preseason.
I will not give any sort of judgment on a player in a preseason game. Preseason is all about going through the motions, getting the timing down, making sure you and the QB are in sync with each other.
You can make a judgment if you want. I wont. Even if he has a good game.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Pre-season is still a live scrimmage
It’s how you evaluate things as a coach. The Brandon Tate you see in the pre-season (given he get a lot of playing time) won’t be that different from the Brandon Tate you will see in the regular season. I mean if you’re not judging guys than how do you know who’s good for the roster and who’s not?
Well judging from what I saw in the first 2 pre-season games I know that
1) Pass Rush is good again
2) Darius Butler has not improved
3) Stevan Ridley is the Ridler
4) Andre Carter and Mark Anderson are good edge rushers.
5) Chad Ochocinco still needs work in the offense.
Even though it’s preseason you can still make general player evaluations.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
Right.
We can see a good preview, but we won’t see the full potential of tate in preseason. thats all. only a glimpse, but nothing more. He’ll be playing in a vanilla playbook, so what we see of tate in preseason, will not be the same tate (close but not totally) we see in the season.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
you make good points about patriots receivers. the good ones do show it. i want to give tate another year before i assess him.
this season will be pivotal for tate to show the fans how well he plays. the key is that he makes significant improvement. i would have tried to practice with brady in off season if i were him in order to get in sync with brady more.
Nice debate.
I personally think Price has more potential, and a higher ceiling than Tate.
Price had DeSean Jackson like combine numbers, at a much bigger size. Tate might be just as tall as Price, but Price just looks sturdier.
Tate may be fast, and he definitely does have acceleration and quickness too, you can see it on his returns. But how much of that quickness is used in and out of his breaks while he’s running routes?
How precise is he running his routes?
Was Brady overthrowing him, or was Tate not getting to the spot he was supposed to get to?
How are Tate’s hands?
Is Tate’s value diminished by the new return rules?
To me there are a lot of questions surrounding Tate. He could answer all of them and more in a very positive way for all I know.
Tate’s a very young player with a lot of potential, and quite a physical specimen.
However to me, Price has just slightly more upside, and is more of a physical specimen. He’s tough, has soft hands, looks very fluid going over the middle, his mid-air body control looks great. None of this is science, it’s all eye-test. Price just looks fluid and natural, and Tate just doesn’t always look the part.
by UtopianAverage on Aug 24, 2011 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Basically what I'm trying to say, if my point kind of got lost up there.
I think Price is better.
But I do think Tate is good, and probably not deserving of all the criticism he’s getting.
by UtopianAverage on Aug 24, 2011 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Price (4.33) has faster 40 yd time (4.39) than Tate … Price may have even run in the 4.2’s sometime.
tate did run injured.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
right. lots of questions.
im waiting to see if he improved up most of those or not. That will have to be seen.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
The WR position usually doesn’t take awhile to develop, you can usually tell who going to be something within their 1st couple seasons
Say what?
Most WRs aren’t great coming out of the box. Even Marvin Harrison didn’t crack 1000 yards his first year, and he was a #1 WR in his first year.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Aug 25, 2011 3:46 AM EDT up reply actions
On top of that...
I just read somewhere yesterday that the Patriots’ offensive playbook is around 5" thick – a lot to process for a veteran, let alone a rookie.
Keep the faith!
That's each one.
Remember Brady saying Gronk was still working out of the first one in TC last year?
I think he said there’s 3 of them.
"Perhaps it was the Noid who should have avoided me." Mayor Adam West
Yes but they show their good
You don’t need to crack 1000 YDs to be considered good.
Percy Harvin won rookie of the year without a 1000 yds and he’s still considered a good WR. So is Jeremy Maclin, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, etc.
Look at Harrison’s stats and look at Harvin’s (RoY stats)
64 Recs 836 Yds 8 TDs. Harrison
60 Recs 790 Yds 6 TDs Harvin
That’s pretty good for a rookie especially since Jim Harbaugh was throwing to him. Then next year he get more catches for more yards. Then he got a quality QB, in Peyton Mannning for a whole season (played 12 games his rookie year) and his production explodes
Tell me that most good WRs as rookies get Brandon Tate numbers.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
You think Percy Harvin can run Moss's routes?
cause that was what Tate was doing. In his first year playing no less. That’s pretty unfair imo.
This year ocho should be able to play that role better than anyone we have. The role as a downfield-ish threat.
ALSO, Tate did not display good route running skills last year, and couldn’t pick up synergy with Brady. It remains to be seen whether or not he improved upon those this year or not. No doubt Price IS ahead of him now.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
What?
So you thought it was unfair for Tate to run Moss’s routes, because he was too inexperienced? I don’t understand Moss was mainly just a field stretcher in this offense and I really can’t imagine him having more than 4 routes to run, all of them being deep routes.
Also Percy Harvin has enough speed to run Moss’s routes, if you don’t believe me go on Youtube and watch some of his highlights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaepRgD-9y8
He using his speed in his route running and reaches his top speed faster than Tate. Just saying
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
He also kind of reminds me of Price
Strong Hands
Nice Speed and Quickness
Great Body Control
My god if Price can be as good as Harvin we are in for a great season.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
yes it is unfair, because his skill set is not like moss's.
Like Slotmachine or Comedic sans said, he should be used more like santonio holmes, which i completely agree with.
Last year, tate was good. not great, but good. The routes he ran after moss left did not help, because his skill set is not made to be like that. Brady missing him multiple times does not help either. These are the truths.
tate needs to get better in rout running, and get better with chemistry with brady. This whole argument started because I said I think tate has the potential to be more dangerous than Price due tocthe combination of his speed and quickness. he just needs to fix those two things. But you have your Price blind folds on, so to think that Tate COULD be better immediately you disregard it. tate had a good season, but his season was not helped because of those two things.
So cut Tate some slack, and lets see what he can do this season.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
It will take time for Tate to run routes like moss, but he needs, NEEDS, to get better at route running.
and the timing will be key….
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
This is what IMO started it
You said
its pretty unfair to crown price over tate when you havent even gave tate a shot in preseason. both have been great in camp. I wouldnt call either of them being a star at camp either though.
I disagreed, said Tate hasn’t shown anything in camp while Price has shown
He is undoubtedly the better WR.
and showed you clear evidence of Price being a star in camp with notes like
The second-year receiver has been a stud on offense in camp
Then you changed your mind and agreed with me
No doubt Price IS ahead of him now.
I never once said Brandon Tate if he improves his route running and hands and timing with Brady will not be better than Price. I just doubted that would happen because of his lack of production and improvement over last season coupled with him not showing anything note worthy in camp the time he was there. Now if anyone actually has some notes of him displaying the things he needed to get fixed then I might change my opinion of Tate, but until he does something to show he’s improved then I will continue to doubt he’ll reach his potential.
The point is the good ones usually show what they got early within the 1st couple seasons and bad ones don’t. And if a guy in 2 seasons and a training camp hasn’t convinced you of their abilities or shown improvement then IMO it’s not being cruel to doubt them until they do.Mayo, Gronk, McCourty, Hernandez, Elderman, Woodhead, Hoyer and now Price have all shown they can play when they’ve gotten chances in the pre-season and regular season. Brandon Tate has even done that at KR, but not at WR
And I also disagreed with you that Tate had a good season last year, and all you were doing was blaming his lack of production and lack of improvement on other things like his routes and his HoF QB, which I didn’t believe made that much of a difference, because he, like you said "did not display good route running skills" and "couldn’t pick up synergy with Brady" and he his hands weren’t very reliable all season. So that’s why I thought his lack of production/improvement reflected more on his ability at WR then the play of his MVP QB or his routes. That’s all this has been.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
And just for kicks
Harvin Rookie season highlights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjQ15yqOXJo
The kid was a beast as a rookie too.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
I know. Ive seen the highlights. May be even better than price.
And yes, I agreed that price is ahead of him now, but all I was saying that Tate has the potential to be better than price. Why I think this? Well because I believe Tate has a much better combination of speed and quickness that price does not have, and that he still has good hands.
Last year, I say he was good, on most of those throws that Brady overthrew to him, or just miss him, he was open. Tate got open. The reason I say he needs to work on his route running is because he had trouble selling the go routes, or manipulating the coverage. He needs to be a bit more solid in his cuts.
Your right though, he hasnt shown anything in camp that people have taken notes on. As far as I know, Marima told me that tate, when healthy, to her looked more impressive than price. Why wasn’t it reported? I have no idea. Maybe Price was given more reps than tate, maybe brady was throwing it more too price. Whatever it is, Price was getting more attention than tate when he was at camp. But I trust Marima to her word, seeing as how she has been to camps for years, and she is a well respected blogger here.
What can I go off of now? Well his college play (there was youtube highlights, but I think youtube took them down). In college he took apart coverages well with his speed and quickness (of course he doesnt take them apart all the time, but he still made plays). When he came into the starting role last year, he looked raw in route running. he can do santonio holmes like routes fine, but when they had him do moss’s routes, which had slants but were mostly go routes, he could not do well. He needs to know how to manipulate coverages in order to fit that role.
I dont know how he will do. All I said was that he had potential to be better than price. He just needs to get his route running more down, and more polished, and NEEDS to develop chemistry with brady.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
here's tate in college. i cant find any recent video anyways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS6L070REw0
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
"Ive seen the highlights. May be even better than price. "
Now that’s unfair. Price has played one pre-season game and Harvin has played nearly two full seasons. But whatever, I like both players.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
er... you took it the wrong way....
Im not basing it selfishly on how much they have done so far. Just seems like Harvin looks to have a pro bowl season already on the rise. imo
Im not going to base price on a preseason game. I wont base anyone, not even tate, on a preseason game. They are good previews, but preseason to me is not on the same pace or level as a season game.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
So you will take nothing off of it?
I think you can tell a lot about a player from pre-season.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
Believe me, I know I can see what a player has in preseason.
Thats why I love it so much. But I don’t want to bet my money on what I see in preseason vs. what i see in the season. Know what I mean?
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
case and point
lions went 4-0 in preseason, but then went 0-16 in the regular season. Im sure their players performed well in the preseason too.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I feel like team performances
and player performances are much different. I mean the preseason is still taken seriously by most players and they want to make plays just as much as they do in the regular season. The real difference is just that the starters don’t play as long that’s why the lions can go 4-0 in the preseason.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
yeah, but you know what I mean right?
There are things we can take away from preseason. Just that I think the regular season is much more different in terms if intensity and play.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Oh ok I understand what you are saying
Well, even though we may disagree with on how good Tate has been we both still want to see him pan out for the patriots and are both hoping for him to take the next step. I really hope we DO see something from him on Saturday even though it won’t be the end of the world if we don’t.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
But want I'm really wanna see
is they put Price in with the ones. He imo has the most potential to give the offense exactly what it was missing. A Big physical WR with deep speed good hands and great routes.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
It is a fact that Price is faster than Tate when looking at 40 yd dash
It is a fact that Tate is quicker than Price if one when looking at the 20 yd shuttle run
assuming everything else is equal …
Price should be better as intermediate and deep threat
Tate should be better as short and intermediate threat
tate ran the 40 yard dash injured.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
price combine result was 4.33 but he has been timed to run in the 4.2s
tate has been timed numerous times and none as low as price in his history
i would guesstimate tate’s time in low 4.4s based on history
in reality how fast you run in game is more important and that can be subjective
“Brandon Tate tore his ACL at North Carolina, meaning he didn’t participate in drills at the Combine as a senior. He apparently ran a 4.52 40-yard dash on campus, but that’s only according to random Internet sites I can find.
But thanks to knee surgery, we’ll never know how fast Tate is…"
“At 6’1″ and 195 pounds, Tate brings a good physical presence to the wide receiver position; still, it is his speeds which kills out in open space, with the junior running a 4.45 40-yard dash, and appearing to be even faster when in a game time environment.”
“4.52 (Pro Day)”
yeah.... we dont know, but
he just seems faster to me. But I liked his quickness in combination with his speed. Thats what i liked about him.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
He reminds me of Anquan Boldin for now.
Price reminds me of Reggie Wayne. Maybe desean jackson.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
You guys could make a fan post and pose the question
between Tate and Price. This is getting pretty squishy over here on the right hand side. I’m feeling claustrophobic. Eek!
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Aug 26, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Or in the future.
When we see a potentially long debate like this one beginning, we could move it to the JAT.
by UtopianAverage on Aug 26, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
BJGE didnt run that much, and they had Woody as the orimary starter
which he is not a primary starting RB…. at all.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I thought the Jets looked good against Cincinnati. Sanchez looked sharp. It is great to have this PATS vs JETS rivalry in place. These will be two great games – perhaps a third.
It’s also nice to know that the Jets can help the PATS by beating other significant post season contenders. Years ago, the PATS had to take care of business all on their own. Now, the Jets can take out Baltimore and San Diego. It is nice to see the PATS win at the same time the Ravens or the Chargers might lose to the Jets (potentially).
I just like the compaetition.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
*competition
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Anyone will look good against the Bengals
Even when the Jets beat the Bengals in 2009, the Bengals had had a very solid year, and then faded big time down the stretch, but held on to squeak into the playoffs. In that 2009 playoff game, they were missing 3 starting linebackers, and the kicker missed 3 field goals. Just a rant, don’t mind me.
except Darius Butler
when Ochocinco beat him for a TD (game was 31-10 before the pass)
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
by freeland1787 on Aug 23, 2011 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I want the Jets to lose any and every game. We can handle any team that comes our way. We need no help from those
guys. Take for instance, on opening weekends SNF. Dallas vs. Jets. I hate both teams, but i will be rooting my butt off for the Cowgirls. Same goes for when the Jets play the Giants. Now excuse me while i take a shower.
Lewis Hamilton~ 2011 F1 Champion!!!
Life is about who makes it, not who makes it the fastest! Drive slow homie.
by PatNation85 on Aug 22, 2011 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
We all want the Jets to miss the playoffs. It’s great when they lose to Miami and/or Buffalo. But, it’s ideal that they can beat the Ravens and the Chargers. That way, depending on playoff implications, you can hope for the best outcome.
Dallas over the Jets for certain. Those are the losses we all celebrate.
What? We're lowering our expectations from last year for TO differential???
NOOO, unacceptable
Maybe realizing that said level is not maintainable.
That assumes that it is a peak, and there is little room for increase, which may be true if the 3rd down performance improves.
As we force three and outs there are fewer opportunities for a turnover to occur.
I think that is realistic.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
My life has been a trivial pursuit. Trivia: where three roads meet.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Aug 22, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Run:Pass ratio
Brady is a great play action QB – one reason he was so successful early in his career. Then they realized he’s a great pocket passer and stopped using his strength as much as they should. I would love it if they got back to 50:50. Sure, you want the ball in your best player’s hands but the other team is betting it will be there too. Looks like they have a nice stable of backs this year with young depth instead of fragile over the hill vets.
U cant have exclusively play action
or the opposing team will blitz like crazy. U need to have balance in the passing game between under center quick drop throws, play action, and shotgun plays
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
by freeland1787 on Aug 23, 2011 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Has anyone noticed in a lot of Brady's losses in his career
the patriots did not try to run the ball. If you look at a lot of them including last year, the patriots total run attempts really didn’t exceed 16.
Taylor Price will be the starter by the end of the season (Said before Training Camp)
that was becuz they were down a lot early
Cleveland was winning 17-0 before we scored and the Patriots passing game was the only thing working in the first half against the Jets in the regular season. The postseason game was becuz they were losing by two scores most of the game
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
by freeland1787 on Aug 23, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I am wondering if yards gained is the deciding factor as to why/when the PATS choose another running play.
In other words, if they get 3 yards on 1st down, is that considered good. Let’s run it again. I don’t know the answer, but it would be interesting to chart the “next play call” after a running play where the yards gained were 3 or less. You can be sure that the opposing D-coordinator has charted this type of pattern.
Probably the most significant stat would be how often a team runs on 3rd down if the yards needed are 2 or more. THAT would tell you a lot about their confidence in their running game and their commitment to the running game in practice and design.
I would be surprised if the PATS ratio in this scenario is anything less that 80%/20% (pass/run).
This is nothing to do with defenses but Browns LT Joe Thomas got an extension of 7yrs/$84Mil
which sets the market value for top tackles to 12 mil per season
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
And Larry Fitzgerald
just got an 8 year, $120 million dollar contract ($15 mill a year).
by indy pats fan on Aug 23, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
4 for Solder and 2 for Vollmer
BB would pay Solder more than Vollmer would get come extension time
Trevor Bauer: 5 Starts, 1-1, 2.84 ERA, 19 IP, 33K in the minors
Tom Brady: 11-19, 118 Yds, 2 TD in 1 preseason Game
by freeland1787 on Aug 23, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Something to consider...
While I agree that a number of things need to improve; the Pats need to take steps, not jumps to get to the level they want to be at. I would love it if they were able to pull it all together quickly, but a lot of those statistics require a lot of fine tuning to improve. It would be very bad for the Pats if they bit off too much too quickly, and other areas of their game would probably suffer as a result. I would rather see them focus on two or three of those areas, and make sure that everything is working in those departments before switching their focus to other areas.
ehhh...I would argue that a lot of those stats go hand in hand.
As a team defense they shouldn’t be worried about those stats at all and just play their game. Its not so much about improving on 3rd downs but improving on every down. The first two preseason games were perfect examples of the defense succeeding on first and second downs and creating 3rd and long situations. They didn’t do a whole lot of that last year.
There’s a been a lot of debate about keeping or releasing Butler. Even Meriweather has been discussed. I have had both on my 53-man roster from the outset.
I think players like Butler, Meriweather, and Brace represent a huge commitment by the PATS. Their draft pick, the meetings they have attended, and the coaching that they have received are significant investments. Unless the player is a disaster, I expect the PATS to stay committed to the player through their contract.
Butler and Merwieather are difficult to upgrade. In my view, they’re above average, bordering on good with even more upside, and BB is not going to release someone in that category. Meriweather has a Pro Bowl resume. That cannot be ignored or dismissed. He clearly is doing some things well.
Brace is the more interesting issue. He has been upgraded with Haynesworth. Love, G. Warren, and Pryor might be better. Hence, after his PUP stint, Brace could be IR’ed or released unless one of those players mentioned is injured or performing poorly. Brace has had some nice on-field play. His issue seems physical (perhaps motivation to stay conditioned). If a guy like Pryor beats out Brace, well, that’s a push because one pick was high and one pick was low. Money wise, it’s a loss, but draft wise, BB breaks even.
It might fall into BB’s design where he double drafts a position hoping for one return. If he gets two (Hernandez and Gronk), all the better: Pryor and Brace: Ridley and Vereen.
>Butler and Merwieather are difficult to upgrade
this is why they won’t be cut this year. they could always be traded but that’s all.
i think brace and deaderick are on PUP because BB wants to try to keep them. i think
with so much experienced talent being added, he realized they were on bubble only because
of so much top talent. he doesn’t want to lose his younger talent.
the last half of the season, the patriots were in the top 3 defenses. all these people
contributed to that.
I think players like Butler, Meriweather, and Brace represent a huge commitment by the PATS. Their draft pick, the meetings they have attended, and the coaching that they have received are significant investments. Unless the player is a disaster, I expect the PATS to stay committed to the player through their contract.
Like Shaun Crable, Kevin O’Connell, Tyrone McKenzie, Chad Jackson, Bethel Johnson, Laurence Maroney, etc?
Eh.
Token southern hemisphere guy - 14,688km from Foxboro. That's 9128 miles, for you heathens.
Contributing Writer at PatsPulpit
by Comedic.Sans on Aug 25, 2011 3:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. The moment BB doesn't need you anymore he cuts bait.
Just ask Lawyer Milloy.
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