Randy Moss to Return to Football, Patriots Still "Like Him"
by Greg Knopping on Feb 13, 2012 11:26 AM EST
in New England Patriots Rumors
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PrintFormer Patriots and Vikings receiver Randy Moss is seeking a return to professional football. Earlier this morning, Moss announced via his UStream channel that he would be returning to the NFL in 2012. Now, Mike Florio of ProFootballTalk.com is reporting that the Patriots could be interested, and that they've been told that the Patriots "still like him." Florio also states that the Patriots are the "most obvious destination" and that we wouldn't be surprised if "teams lined up quickly" to kick the tires of Moss.
Obviously, this isn't anything concrete, but it is something to speculate about. Ever since the Patriots shipped Moss away during the 2010 season and he was waived by the Vikings just a month later, fans have been enamored with the idea of getting him back.
As you probably know, Moss retired from football prior to this season, but continued to be open about his desire to return to the Patriots. If the Patriots have a mutual interest in Moss, as their article somewhat suggests they've heard, the move would make some sense.
Regardless of your personal opinion of Moss, he showed at the beginning of the 2010 season that he can still command attention deep (which in turn can open up things underneath). Of course, Moss turned 35 today, so it's easy to question how much he still has in the tank. However, if he still is in good shape and is willing to take a significant pay reduction, he could be that deep threat that the Patriots have been missing since he was traded away in 2010.
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But which Randy would sign with the Pats?
The motivated, hard working one that showed up to play in 2007 and 2008, or the one that started taking plays off in 2009, continued to take them off in 2010, and had a bad attitude because he was not getting paid? If it is the first, I welcome his return at the right price. If it is the second, I have no desire to bring him back.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
The "taking plays off" story was a myth
Moss was severely hampered by a back issue in 2009.
Then Moss rejected Belichick’s offer to talk extension in 2010 because he felt “disrespected.”
I think getting traded from New England was a humbling experience. If he were to re-sign, he would definitely be motivated.
by Greg Knopping on Feb 13, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Taking plays off
Randy hasn’t effectively blocked or run a fake route on a run play in his entire career. If he doesn’t get the ball early in the game, he checks out. I’d love to believe an injury was to blame or this time he’ll be motivated, but it’s time to move on and I think the Patriots have. I also don’t like that Brady seemed to force balls to him to keep him happy.
The effectiveness he had while here was due to Brady. He’s shown he is ineffective anywhere else in the past 5 years.
It's not whether you win or lose.
It's whether you win.
-Trump 'The Game'
in Moss's Defense...
The QB situation in Oakland was pretty brutal, and it is hard to pick up an offensive system in mid-stream.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 13, 2012 3:25 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Same with Minnesota and Tennessee I guess
And then nobody else picked him up. Nobody picked up the greatest receiver of all time (besides Rice) coming off a great year and and an epic year the year prior.
It's not whether you win or lose.
It's whether you win.
-Trump 'The Game'
Brad Childress is a complete idiot and a control freak.
They could have done more with Moss, but chose not to. I got to see his games, and Moss did as well as they let him do.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 13, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
This.
He had the back issue AND was playing most of the season with a separated shoulder which he got in the Denver game (which was like week 5 or 6 IIRC).
Even then, analysts who actually watched the all-22 tapes agreed Moss wasn’t dogging it by any means.
There is only one reason I can see for Moss to come back.
It would be so his career ends in a bang rather than a whimper.
He’d be on a low year, prove it, kind of deal at this stage. He’s also seen and played with the new TE’s. He’d have to know that he’s not getting every ball. Also, that could work to his advantage. The more threats there are on the field, the better he will look.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 13, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Also there is 0 risk bringing moss back. He’s not gonna be expensive and at worst the pats cut him and lose pennies.
Or trade him again
for a mid round pick :)
It's not whether you win or lose.
It's whether you win.
-Trump 'The Game'
And it begins.
WTH, let’s play along:
Sure, kick the tires. By which I mean, put a stopwatch on the guy and see how fast he really still is.
"Every time I call it a game, you call it a business. Every time I call it a business, you call it a game."
"The longer they play, the more they lose. In the end, we get it all."
by JohnHannahRules on Feb 13, 2012 11:36 AM EST reply actions
Agreed. I would make the move for Moss as long as it didn't interfere with signing another FA wide receiver
And possibly drafting one as well.
by Greg Knopping on Feb 13, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
I think that would be key.
It would have to be Moss AND a FA or two.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 13, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
You can have both
I can’t imagine Moss would command much more than $1-1.5 million. Just take a flier on him with the understanding that we’d have him in for training camp but he’d have to really earn his spot on the roster by proving he’s still got it
if the price is right, why not?
randy was sensational here and has openly admitted to wanting to come back. if he’s willing to sign for near minimum, why not take a risk? similar to the albert haynesworth acquisition – low risk, high reward. if he’s got sometihng left in the tank, awesome. if not, cut him and move on. the risk is incredibly low. he has to undertstand now that he won’t be getting balls forced his way, and that he’s going to primarily be a decoy. if he’s willing to accept that role and be a good teammate, bring it.
if we had a motivated moss, could you imagine the torture this offense could provide? on paper, it’s not even comparable to 2007. not just welker/moss, but adding herndo and gronk? moss would pull a safety to his side of the field on every single play. that opens up the middle of the field, where brady is just deadly, throwing to gronk/welker/herndo. add that with the hopefully up and coming vereen/ridley combo. and that would be a daunting task to stop.
the offense won’t be centered around him, so i don’t think it would be devastating if he didn’t come around.
that said, i fully do not expect this to happen. i don’t think BB wants to mess with the great chemistry he has in that locker room. if it were to happen, moss is going to have to look BB in the eye and re-earn his trust.
That ship has sailed
He was enormously effective in the Patriots’ system—four long years ago.
If the biggest gripe on Branch these days is that he has “lost a step” due to his age, what do you honestly think a 35-year-old Moss has left? Not to compare the talents of the two receivers as Moss was other-worldly in his prime, but Father Time claims each and every player that passes through this league.
We need a young, shoulder-chipped, piss-and-vinegar wideout that defenses have to at the very least devote an unhealthy bit of attention to. I’d much rather see them try to get younger at the position in pursuing an underrated (and 27-year-old) Robert Meachem and snag a promising prospect (or two) in the draft.
Can I Scream?
I don't know that I agree with you-
Yes, Father time has hit both men, but Moss has been healthier than Branch, who also has knee surgeries in his past. There is a chance he may still have something.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 13, 2012 3:27 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think with age you lose
lateral quickness and agility beore you lose straight line speed. Moss has never been a shifty guy so I think even at 35 he’d have the physical ability to fly down the field. Plus he’s had a whole year away from football, presumably just working out all day with nothig better to do, so he’ll have fresh legs.
lateral quickness and agility
are important for running routes. Even on strait routes that require subtle movements to make the CB think twice and then all of a sudden the WR beats them.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I think people have to realize
the chances of getting a Colston, Wayne, Bowe, etc are very slim if we keep Welker.
You’re basically asking a top WR to come in and be a fourth option in the system. If they DON’T keep Welker, the chances of which seem even slimmer, it’s possible they’ll make plays for outside- the- numbers receivers. Then you have to think of if that player will be able to establish the same chemistry with Brady as Branch.
I don’t think we’re going to bring Moss back, so I think that it really comes down to Brandon Lloyd- older guy but hasn’t lost a significant step, willing to take pay cut to play with McDaniels, and a real burner.
I see us drafting either one or two receivers as well, in the second or third- first if someone special is still on the board.
As much as I’d love a Bowe/Colston/Wayne type, I just don’t think there’s a realistic chance of any of those guys fitting under our cap numbers while BB tries to bring in better secondary players, unless Belichick is planning to revise his offensive system that was in the top 5 in 2011.
Moss is definitely a viable option, but as Mike Reiss said Belichick decided to bring in Underwood over Moss last year. That spoke volumes.
the artist formerly known as amadeus
'I don't make my living by making my living. My time is so important that I can't compromise my taste- or my idea of what's right- simply to match someone else's view of what's a good, calculated move"- Robert Plant
contributing writer at www.HeadkickLegend.com and www.PatsPulpit.com
I don't agree with the 4th receiver logic
Why would they be 4th? They would be 2nd or 3rd and plenty of balls to go around. Brady force fed Gronk and Welker all year because he had nobody else. One or both were doubled often because there was nobody else open. Hernandez benefited from that. Any of those guys should be drooling over having single coverage 3/4 of the time and a great chance to get a SB ring.
It's not whether you win or lose.
It's whether you win.
-Trump 'The Game'
Did Brady "force feed" them because there was noone else
Or did they just get the ball all the time cause they were ALWAYS OPEN?
Probably a bit of both actually.
I agree that the cap numbers wont work if we bring back wes
But which would you rather have: Wes Welker for $9.4mill (the franchise tag number), or Wayne for 5 mill and Lloyd for 4 mill? Then you’d have Lloyd and Wayne outside, Branch/Edelman in the slot, and our two tight ends.
Its at least enough to make you think, no?
We'll probably tag him, then sign him.
And most likely we’ll grab ONE WR this free agency. At least one of the good ones.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Which one would you like?
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 13, 2012 11:44 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Probably Lloyd.
Cheaper, younger, familiar with McDaniels, and consistent.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
really?
Consistently mediocre maybe. He has had one great year and a bunch of really underwhelming years. I don’t get the Lloyd lovefest that a lot of people are showing. His numbers are equivalent to Branch’s of the last year or two and he is getting to the age where production generally speaking doesn’t increase. I only make the comparison to Branch because he is considered I think by many to be a replaceable commodity.
I'd prefer Wayne
Smart, comes from a sophisticated offense, skilled, can run every route, dependable, can beat man coverage.
In order of preference probably Wayne > Moss (when factoring in price) > Lloyd > Meachem. Not keen on Bowe (he’s basically Aaron Hernandez without the versatility), Desean (stupid), Laurent (stupid), Vincent Jackson (limited route tree, expensive).
I think if Meachem is available at the right price he could be a sneaky-awesome acquisition. Comes from a complex offense, has speed to burn, and also a TD machine.
Lloyd, under mcdaniels, (minus the year he got injured)
was awesome.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
yes
but he was also operating as the team’s #1 and that’s because the rest of the wideouts sucked. I just have a lot of skepticism for one season of production with about 7 years of mediocrity surrounding it.
but he was also operating as the team’s #1 and that’s because the rest of the wideouts sucked.
No. It was because he was the most consistent.
I just have a lot of skepticism for one season of production with about 7 years of mediocrity surrounding it.
And rightly you should, but under McDaniels, he has been completely fine. Of course, he was injured the year after his big season, but its quite obvious that he is capable of producing very well.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
If he comes back on a veteran min or something cheap then yes
I think he took last year off to get his head cleared up and has been humbled by the trade experience. We all know he wanted NE even before retirement and seeing them just miss winning the SB (where he would have helped a lot) probably makes him want to come back again. He’d be cheaper than any other option out there i would believe. Easily could be a low risk high rewards situation with Moss…again (like in 2007 but in no way that good). Oh yea McDaniels is back, and he thrived in that offense even when Cassel was QB. I guess they might really bring th gang back together.
Why would they take him now
when they could have had him the past 1.5 years and chose not to? He’s done. He should go hang out with TO (and Ocho).
It's not whether you win or lose.
It's whether you win.
-Trump 'The Game'
guys...if moss is willing to be the 5th wheel, yes.
if not…no.
I want Welker, a FA or Rookie star, Hernandez, and Gronkowski to be the top 4 threats. Then we need Edelman to back up Welker, Slater as ST/depth, and Branch/Moss/Ocho as backup.
It will be still better than a WR corp of Welker/Branch/Edelman/Slater/Underwood/Ocho
A corp of Vincent Jackson/Welker/Edelman/Slater/Branch/Moss
PLUS Hernando and Gronkowski?
And Woodhead and BJGE? And Ridley and Vereen?
That’s ridiculous!!!
Lakers and Patriots forever.
I wonder what McDaniels thinks?
Come see the violence inherent in the system, help help I'm being repressed.
by sweetjesusihatethejets on Feb 13, 2012 1:32 PM EST reply actions
McDaniels doesn't think
…he knows
It's not whether you win or lose.
It's whether you win.
-Trump 'The Game'
by iLikeStuff on Feb 13, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
YES YES YES
Your 2011 Stanley Cup Champion Boston Bruins
Hockey Blog Adventure is my blog but I'm way more active on Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Feb 13, 2012 3:02 PM EST reply actions
in the end, i feel comfortable having mcdaniels make that decision so i really don’t care one way or another. i think patriots will likely choose a wide receiver in the draft.
patriots have an estimated 20+ million cap surplus but a large chunk of that will likely go to Welker. Welker has about 3 years left in his career or until he loses his quickness. he’s likely a little too small to last beyond 34 years old. Hopefully, he retires a patriot.
the patriots need to manage the cap long term.
i’m leery about spending too much money on a receiver.
i’d rather see receiver by committee approach.
i would be hapy with this move.
Randy would know he will no longer be number one, but he has a legitimate shot at being a huge contributer to a championship team. He would be accepted by the fans and teammates.
What it comes down to me is, is this team a better team with Randy Moss? I believe it is.
by BAMF. on Feb 13, 2012 4:12 PM EST via mobile reply actions
oh man
could you imagine the nightmare our offense would be if we had moss again. especially if ocho learns the system and we used hernadez in the backfield again like we did in the playoffs. welker,moss, ocho, gronk, hernandez, you cant stop them all!!!
by craziness@analltimehigh on Feb 13, 2012 4:16 PM EST reply actions
I don't know that either Gronk or Hernandez is a smart money bet either.
Gronk lost the 2009 football season to back surgery and Hernandez has not been a model of durability in 2 NFL seasons. Time will tell whether either can hold up well enough to earn big money deals.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 14, 2012 12:50 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Hold your horses...
That would be amazing, but 2012 Randy Moss is not 2007 Randy Moss, not by a long shot.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 14, 2012 12:51 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Dude, you're missing the point.
Who here thinks that Moss won’t be an upgrade over Slater on that deep ball Brady got picked off on in the AFC championship? Who here doesn’t think that Gronkowski may have caught that Hail Mary in the end zone if Moss was in the other end with four guys bracketing him?
Lakers and Patriots forever.
In 2010, Randy Moss showed that he could be covered
without being doubled, and passes thrown his way could be intercepted. I don’t know how he corrects that after being out of football for a year.
Keep the faith!
Not to mention
I am more confident in Gronk grabbing the Hail Mary then Moss. he is taller, and has hands the size of a continent.
Moss may be an upgrade over slater, but slater isn’t even considered a WR anymore. He is a special teamer. Moss is washed up. I would get him for very little money, but I don’t want him to start.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Look, I agree that Gronk is better.
But maybe it would have been easier for him when the Giants have to double others. If we send Hernandez, Welker, Gronkowski, Moss, streaking to the end zone, that’s better than sending Slater, Welker, Gronkowski, Hernando to the endzone.
That’s my point. Maybe Moss would have drawn a double team (I’m sure he would’ve with the SB on the line) and Hernandez and Gronk would have had less to worry about.
Lakers and Patriots forever.
He would not hve drawn a double team.
He didn’t draw much the season before.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
But to play devil's advocate seeing as no one knows what's going on in his head
How much of that is due to him not being motivated to try all year? It’s obvious he’s not the 07 Moss anymore; that’s for sure. But how much of that difference between the years is due to getting older, and how much is due to the fact that he simply didn’t have that 07 attitude any more?
I think he’s still talented enough (and enough of a freak of an athlete) to command a double team in a situation like that if it was a motivated Moss.
by indy pats fan on Feb 15, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
How much of that is due to him not being motivated to try all year? It’s obvious he’s not the 07 Moss anymore; that’s for sure. But how much of that difference between the years is due to getting older, and how much is due to the fact that he simply didn’t have that 07 attitude any more?
2010 was his contract year. if that didn’t motivate him, I would be worried. And if he wasn’t trying for the pats in 2010, then I definitely don’t want him here.
And age has a lot to do with it. He is slower in his cuts, and fakes. Sure, he can run, but its useless if all you want him to do is run a strait line, because the defense will figure it out quickly. And like I said, he wasn’t getting double teams in 2010.
I think he’s still talented enough (and enough of a freak of an athlete) to command a double team in a situation like that if it was a motivated Moss.
A motivated Moss can’t stop father time.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Moss was upset over his contract and the fact that he hadn’t been approached for an extension. He’s never been the kind of man to see something like that professionally, but rather personally. He didn’t see the Pats as wanting him back and took it as an insult which led to the decreased motivation and distraction over whether or not he’d get that contract, which led to him being traded and it all went downhill from there for him. Being tossed around like a rag doll like that as someone who is likely to be a future Hall of Famer is a pretty humbling experience I’d imagine, and getting an entire year to clear his head and realized he isn’t getting handed anything anymore sounds to me like we would see a Moss worth taking a shot on.
It seems like people are treating Moss as being a lot older than he actually is. Yes, 35 is freaking old for a WR. But look what TO was able to do while being over 40, and Jerry Rice had a few good (albeit not that good relative to his standards) seasons while still quite a bit older than Moss. Those guys even played route trees that were less age friendly than the type of routes Moss runs.
by indy pats fan on Feb 15, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Moss was upset over his contract and the fact that he hadn’t been approached for an extension. He’s never been the kind of man to see something like that professionally, but rather personally.
Yeah thats bad too.
He didn’t see the Pats as wanting him back and took it as an insult which led to the decreased motivation and distraction over whether or not he’d get that contract, which led to him being traded and it all went downhill from there for him.
Strange…. sounds like a wimp then. Wilfork and Welker had to wait till their contracts ended. Wilfork got a great pay day afterwards. Welker might get the same.
Being tossed around like a rag doll like that as someone who is likely to be a future Hall of Famer is a pretty humbling experience I’d imagine, and getting an entire year to clear his head and realized he isn’t getting handed anything anymore sounds to me like we would see a Moss worth taking a shot on.
That would be nice if his head was clear. However there is still a concern for:
1) His age
2) Consistency
3) Versatility (would he still be able to run all sorts of routes which the pats implement an option passing offense, or can he still only run ONE single route?)
In 2010, all of those were on the wrong side of “Yes.”
It seems like people are treating Moss as being a lot older than he actually is. Yes, 35 is freaking old for a WR. But look what TO was able to do while being over 40, and Jerry Rice had a few good (albeit not that good relative to his standards) seasons while still quite a bit older than Moss. Those guys even played route trees that were less age friendly than the type of routes Moss runs.
Owens stunk since he left the Cowboys. So that argument is now gone. Moss is not Jerry Rice. And yes, those guys played more diverse route trees, and the pats offense is VERY diverse in its routes. Moss can only run 3 routes: The go route, the slant, and the comeback. And last year he looked have slowed down on all 3.
35 is old, and he has shown it. I don’t think they traded Moss with the sole reason of him saying “I want a contract.” There was more to it. Slowing down has some to do with it, as well as him getting into verbal altercations with Bill O’Brien and Brady seeming to no longer trust him “ability” for the whole game (he caught one ball, and targeted twice if I remember) vs. Miami, which is a red flag imo. It means Moss had not much left, and it was time to sell while you can. Then Moss could not survive in an offense with AP, and Percy Harvin, then he couldn’t survive with Kenny Britt and Chris Johnson.
I like Moss, but I’m a very objective guy. Moss in 2010 h=was a gigantic disappointment, and we have been better off without him.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Yeah against the Jets, cause they have the best corner in the league...
Otherwise they still ran bracket coverage on him.
If he comes back, he’ll coming back to a much more talented and diversified offense with other players who command double teams and bracket coverages
Im pretty sure Moss wasn't the only one who got a TD against revis that year.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
nothing showed me more than BB himself
showing that he respected Moss by double-teaming him every play.
Even then, we still had that long PI against the Vikings.
Moss might still be better than Ocho and is definitely an upgrade over Slater at the WR spot.
That’s all I’m saying.
Lakers and Patriots forever.
Sure...maybe he stays and the spot that gets sacrificed is Tarpinian or Koutovides
Or Silvestro or woever.
My point is that when looking at WR depth, Moss is an upgrade over Slater or Branch, or even Ocho.
Lakers and Patriots forever.
Debateable.
Moss did not do anything in 2010 with us. He dropped more passes than caught when he was with the pats.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Not really
Matt Slater 2011: 1 rec 46 yards
Deion Branch 2011: 51 rec 702 yards 5td
Chad Ochocinco 2011: 15 rec 276 yards 1 td
Moss 2010: 9 rec 139 yards 3 tds in 4 games with NE. Pro-rate that to a 16 game season and you have a 36 catch 556 yard season with 16 touchdowns. Branch arguably had the better year, but he wasn’t facing double and triple teams this year like Moss was for those games in 2010.
He’ll likely face single coverage now so he should be able to at least come close to his 2010 numbers, which is better than what any of those three receivers did last year, with the exception of Branch.
Moss wasn't facing double or triple teams though.
And he dropped MORE passes than he CAUGHT passes that year. I want to say he dropped over 5 of them in that 4 game span. Maybe even more than 9.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
He was not even in the top 71 last year according to advancednflstats
http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?year=2010&pos=WR&season=reg
Can’t find the drop stats, but I remember counting how many times Randy dropped the ball with us, and he dropped it quite a bit. Not to mention our offense became more versatile when he left, instead of it being just “Moss and Welker.” He does not fit our style of offense either.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I don't like the style of offense argument
It’s one thing mid-season, but during the off-season like this, the Patriots can adjust their offense to suit what they have available. And even then, you argue that Moss is better in a 3 WR system and we currently run a lot of 2 TE. Why not go with Moss, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, and Vereen/Ridley? You basically have both systems available to you seeing as Hernandez can fill a TE or WR (or even RB) role on any given play.
As for the offense becoming more dynamic, keep in mind those were Hernandez and Gronk’s first 4 games in the league. I suppose you could say that Moss’s departure is what keyed their integration into the offense, but that’s a moot point now that they’ve shown how talented they are. Him coming back won’t suddenly send them back to being irrelevant.
Basically what I’m getting at is systems can be adjusted fairly easily and have been under Belichick. It should come down to the quality of play you’d get out of the player and how he’d compliment those around him rather than if he can be directly inserted into the system that’s been used.
by indy pats fan on Feb 15, 2012 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
It’s one thing mid-season, but during the off-season like this, the Patriots can adjust their offense to suit what they have available. And even then, you argue that Moss is better in a 3 WR system and we currently run a lot of 2 TE. Why not go with Moss, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, and Vereen/Ridley? You basically have both systems available to you seeing as Hernandez can fill a TE or WR (or even RB) role on any given play.
Because the routes in a 3 WR offense is different from that in a 2 TE offense. You can spread them out, sure, but the routes are completely different. 3 WR offenses are meant to attack a defense vertically. A 2 TE offense is meant to slowly and methodically beat your opponent down, taking time out the clock, and running the ball. Moss would not do very well in this offense, with reasons I have already stated.
As for the offense becoming more dynamic, keep in mind those were Hernandez and Gronk’s first 4 games in the league. I suppose you could say that Moss’s departure is what keyed their integration into the offense, but that’s a moot point now that they’ve shown how talented they are. Him coming back won’t suddenly send them back to being irrelevant.
What are you talking about? BB drafted, and started them since the first game. I think he intended them to be integrated into the offense. And they were.
Basically what I’m getting at is systems can be adjusted fairly easily and have been under Belichick. It should come down to the quality of play you’d get out of the player and how he’d compliment those around him rather than if he can be directly inserted into the system that’s been used.
How was the quality of play from Moss in 2010 you think? oh yeah, not very good at all. he dropped passes, and got into arguments. If he cleared his head, fine. But his age and route running skills have shown from last year that they have been diminished, and our offense got better without him.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
The route concepts aren't all that different at all actually
In fact if you actually watch the games you would see that the tight ends are often deployed as receivers in a lot of passing plays, split out wide or in the slot.
That's what I was talking about
I wasn’t saying “with the TE out running routes, it’s basically 3 WR”. I meant we could actually use a TE in a WR role, running the same route a WR would, with the same effectiveness as a WR thanks to Hernandez being so similar to one (and Gronk can do w/e he wants because he’s Gronk).
by indy pats fan on Feb 16, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
They are different though.
This is a horizontal passing offense. We ran a vertical passing offense with Moss. This offense is more control based, while the other offense is more attacking based. I don’t see gronk and Herndo doing Moss routes much.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
You are assuming
That if moss comes back the Patriots will rebuild their offense to feature him as their vertical threat? That’s ridiculous. We’ll run the same offense that we always have, and feature our tight ends because theyre the most talented players on the offense. What Moss will bring is a bit of diversity in that we could utilise the deep third of the field a little better.
You are assuming. That if moss comes back the Patriots will rebuild their offense to feature him as their vertical threat?
Since when did I assume such a thing?
If Moss comes in no doubt he will have to run our routes. Perhaps they’ll make some slight adjustments, but if so I wouldn’t do that until I know he can still play, which I don’t think he will. If he would be our #1, the our offense will have to be tweaked a bit, because as of now, he doesn’t fit in our horizontal scheme. I think he has slown down, and I would rather get Meachem or a rookie WR that can be a deep threat.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Also the drops came in 4 games
An extremely limited sample size. Surely someone who loves to throw around advanced stats would recognise as much. Other than that, drops were never a significant problem with Randy from 07-09, or throughout his career.
And how does he not fit our style of offense? How does someone catch 50 tds in 52 games in a system that he doesn’t fit? The Pats have featured the tight end more, but don’t make it out like there’s no wide receivers on the team catching passes. Moss could in a pinch come in and provide comparable if not better production than ochocinco, matt slater, tiquan underwood, taylor price etc etc. and while he may not be as dependable as branch he would provide certain skillsets that branch couldn’t
An extremely limited sample size.
Its the only size I can go off of since thats as long as he has been here. He was dropping some balls, and becoming unreliable in some cases.
And how does he not fit our style of offense? How does someone catch 50 tds in 52 games in a system that he doesn’t fit?
Because he is not 07 Moss, and the system HAS changed. And you think way too highly of Moss. His abilities have dropped. i don’t know how good he can be with us now.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
No one is saying he's 07 moss
Please stop creating straw men. What I said was, and corroborated with facts, is that our receivers aside from welker and maybe branch performed at such a pitiful level, despite facing single coverage, Moss is still probably an upgrade despite his advanced age. He put up better numbers than them two years ago despite facing double and triple teams. He may have lost a step since then, but at the same time he’ll face single coverage now so that should even out, and his knowledge of the system and his immense football IQ will mean he can fit right back in quite seamlessly.
And I don’t think you understand – the SYSTEM is the same and has remained the same since 2000. It is BILL BELICHICK’s offense – its just had the flavours and stylings of Weiss, Mcdaniels and Obrien added to it over the years, and featured different aspects of the offense depending on the personnel, but the offense is still the same
That's excatly what Brady was saying:
… the offense is still the same
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
The OFFENSIVE system has changed though.
also its hard to fully judge our WRs. Welker, Herndo, and gronk were the feature of our offense. I don’t think Branch was expected to be more than just the 4th WR to be looked at, and anyone underneath (such as Ocho) would be looked at even less. Its the product of who is more reliable, and Welker, herndo, and Gronk were just more reliable. Heck, most team’s offenses have 3 guys who are reliable and they go to.
If Moss came in here, he would probably be an upgrade over Branch. But how much of an improvement I do not know. I don’t expect Moss to come in and all of a sudden be an impact. I truly think he has slown down, and we would be better off spending the vet minimum money to help with signing another WR in FA, or sign a WR in the draft.
I would get Moss if he would help with developing our young WRs. If he is good enough, start him. If not, then I expect him to be humble, and let the better man play, which I don’t think he’ll like. And I don’t think he has much left in the tank. Maybe a small upgrade over Branch due to his height, but that’s really it imo unless he proves to me otherwise.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Yes, he was.
What’s more, none other than Bill F. Belichick covered Moss with 3 players when the Vikings came to town.
That's what makes me think that Moss wasn't dropped because he'd gotten old
You don’t get rid of someone, then devote so many players to stopping them if you don’t think they’re a downfield threat anymore. I’m not saying he’s going to turn out to be 07 Moss all over again. I’m saying it’d be stupid to not at least look into seeing how much the man still has left, because I doubt the couple down years for him since his last good season has deteriorated his ability so much that he wouldn’t be able to upgrade this team.
by indy pats fan on Feb 16, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
He was dropped because he was becoming a nuisance
and going along with his age, and a drop in his abilities, it was time to let him go, and move on.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
On one play.
If I remember.
He wasn’t being double covered that much when he as with us though.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
He was....
Do you have access to all 22 film? No. Neither do I, but I choose to listen to people who actually do
All 22? No But I followed Moss closely in 2010
For a guy that I expected to be awesome, he was disappointing me all 4 games. Yeah, he got 3 TDs in the 4 games, but I noticed that he wasn’t being that much of a factor. He wasn’t commanding the double teams as I expected. Yeah, teams would double him, but probably just as much as Wes Welker now.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I would take Moss back as a mentor.
I wouldn’t want him starting in our offense. Its not his style. We run a 2 TE offense. He is best in a 3 WR offense.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Well... a 3 WR offense with a good #2 guy that can stretch the field as well...
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
You bring up an interesting point
Particularly considering that McDaniels likes to run a 3 wideout spread offense. It will be very interesting to see what happens to the offense next year as system and personnel try to meld together.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 14, 2012 12:53 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
But is serving as a mentor really Randy's bag either?
I am not sure that he could play that role well or that he would influence anything other than anarchy.
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 14, 2012 12:56 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
What? He's been cited as one of the best mentors on the team
During his time here. Hernandez especially cited him as a great guy to learn from.
McCourty in his rookie year praised Moss for teaching him how to handle NFL receivers when the matched up. Hernandez also praised moss. Cassell during 2008 along with other teammates praised Moss’s leadership in the locker room and replacing Brady’s absence. Rand is some regards gets bad rep like Ocho. Ocho talks too much and is viewed as a cancer which he is not, Randy Moss marches to his own beat which might rub people the wrong way.
Sign Brandon Lloyd, Randy Moss and re-sign Welker
If we could get Welker for around 7 million, Lloyd for around 5 million, Randy for around 1 million, then we’re still 7 million under the cap to sign a safety or DB and then we could just line up Herndo, Gronk, Moss, Lloyd and Welker and wreak havoc while our secondary plays well for once. Boom, super bowl caliber team.
I take comfort in the fact that the salary cap makes having the perfect team equally impossible for everyone...
So nobody is going to have that lineup against the Pats either!
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 14, 2012 12:55 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Boom, goes the dynamite.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Bring him BACK!!!
Who doesn’t miss to see TFB’s 50 yard bombs to Randy F Moss outleaping a CB! Please McD and BB bring him back!!!
This applies only if he’s the some player from 07-08.
by gap2539 on Feb 13, 2012 5:12 PM EST via mobile reply actions
this is tough
but shit the WR hasn’t developed a WR from the draft in years. is this a failure of the Patriots or bad luck? There are more busts than success stories. Givens and Branch were great but who else since the early 90s has developed (WRs not TEs or receiving Rbs)
So. this is what I think.
Next year,
WRs – Sign Welker, First Round WR, Dorin Dickerson (off practice squad fills 3rd TE or WR watch his tape on youtube serious monster), Moss, Edelmen, Underwood (potential and could be a KR)
or Sign Welker, First Round WR, Dorin Dickerson, 3rd Round WR, Edelmen, Branch
never thought Price was given a chance
the only time we saw Price was a game in preseason in which he excelled
He played one preseason game. lol
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
But yes, Price has talent
and its unfortunate that he couldn’t stay healthy to develop his talent in our system.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
my question is
if signs with us, does poor Hernando have to change his number AGAIN?
Thad Castle: Which one of you assholes stuck his finger in my asshole?
Lol...
Probably- maybe it will just be the new rule- Herndo gets a new number every year!
"Valdez can pitch, Lee can hit... and pigs can fly."
by dannijd on Feb 14, 2012 1:44 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
See if you can collect the whole set of Herndo jerseys.
You’ve got red, white, and blue plus a new number every year. Gotta catch ’em all!
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 14, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Couldn't we...
just have Moss take 84 which is his favorite? Deion would be gone or he’d be back as a backup.
Lakers and Patriots forever.
81% like
funny how that works out.
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by New Century Silver on Feb 26, 2012 12:10 AM EST reply actions
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