New England Patriots Links 2/15/12 - 2011: One of Belichick's Best?
Mike Reiss notes Greg Cosell, the executive producer of NFL Matchup and a senior producer at NFL Films for 31 years, calls the 2011 season some of Bill Belichick's finest work.
"It can easily be argued that Belichick did one of the best coaching jobs of his career this season," Cosell writes. "I broke down every game on tape, ending of course with the Super Bowl. It struck me as I finished reviewing all my notes that New England was not an overly talented team in 2011. What they achieved was remarkable given their overall deficiencies."
Cosell goes on to note one of the big deficiencies in the team's offensive attack -- the lack of a vertical threat.
"I understand that a more fortuitous bounce of the ball on 2 occasions could have given the Patriots another championship, but that only validates the point," Cosell writes. "This team won 15 games, and was in position to win the Super Bowl without a critical offensive component, one that every team covets and is necessary for a complete and multi-dimensional offense. The ability to overcome that deficiency was the result of outstanding coaching and elite quarterback play."
Then Cosell touches on the defense.
"Belichick made it clear just how poor his team was in the back end with his use of personnel. Matthew Slater? Julian Edelman? I know he’s utilized offensive players in the past (Troy Brown) with some success, but this year’s version was not genius, it was desperation," he writes. "My guess is Belichick felt the same way. ... The simple truth was the Patriots had a poor defense in 2011. We can blame personnel decisions but that’s a different conversation. They still had to line up and play with what they had, and the fact that Belichick was able to get this team to the Super Bowl was extraordinary."
Rob Gronkowski returns to the Twitter-sphere to thank his fans.
"Thanks for all the support too throughout my surgery! Grinding everyday to get back & already excited for what next season brings! Love ya!"
"Shout out to all #Patsnation and #Gronknation fans! Thanks for all the support throughout the year! All of you are amazing!"
TEAM TALK
- Paul Perillo's Ask PFW: Turning the page.
- Patriots Mock Draft tracker.
- PFW in Progress - Brian Lowe and Lyndsay Petruny join Fred Kirsch and Erik Scalavino to kick-off the start of the off-season with NFL Draft and free agency talk. (2 hour program)
LOCAL LINKS
- Christopher Price reports that the Patriots have begun contract talks with BenJarvus Green-Ellis, and wonders whether he lands with NE or possibly Kansas City.
- Karen Guregian hears from Willie McGinest, who talks up Brandon Spikes and sees even more impact from the dynamic, aggressive LB in 2012.
- Jim Donaldson takes one last look at 2011 before moving on to next season.
- Mike Reiss notes the dramatic increase in playing time this year for Vince Wilfork and Kyle Love.
- Tom E. Curran reports Tom Brady aggravated his left shoulder sprain when he was sacked by Justin Tuck in the Super Bowl, but his offseason work should be unaffected.
- Christopher Price profiles free agent WR Reggie Wayne as a possible fit for the Patriots.
- Luke Hughes says WR Brandon Lloyd's agent may keep the Patriots from signing him.
- CSNNE reports DL Andre Carter tweeted a fan Tuesday saying he would like to come back to New England next year.
- Karen Guregian notes the Patriots added RB Eric Kettani to their 80-man offseason roster, even though he hasn't yet been cleared by the Navy to return.
- Shalise Manza Young posts the draft order for the first round of this year's draft (to be held April 26-28).
- Mike Reiss comments on the Mock Draft picks from Wes Bunting of the National Football Post. Both first-round picks have a defensive focus.
- Jeff Howe tries to whittle down the Patriots' 2,552 plays for a top ten best plays of 2011 list.
- Jeff Howe lists the Patriots top ten worst plays of 2011.
- Mike Reiss answers his weekly reader mailbag: Receivers in focus.
- Bob Ryan and Kevin Paul Dupont debate whether the Patriots should risk everything for a title next season. (2 min. video)
NATIONAL NEWS
- Greg Cosell (NFLFilms.com) 2011 Elevated Belichick's legacy. Excellent read.
- Gregg Rosenthal (ProFootballTalk) Patriots have had contract talks with Green-Ellis.
- Scott Kacsmar (Cold Hard Football Facts) Why Tom Brady's failed connection with Wes Welker in Super Bowl XLVI shouldn't have been a surprise.
- James Walker (ESPN) Top 40 players in the AFC East: Nos. 37-40, Nos. 33-36, Nos. 29-32, and Nos. 25-28.
- Pete Prisco (CBS Sports) Playing 32 offseason questions: Prisco has one for each NFL team.
- John Clayton (ESPN) Plenty of (cap) room to improve.
- Don Banks (SI) Sizing up the Moss market; Which teams make the most sense?
- Mike Freeman (CBS Sports) Ten-point stance: Must-see Moss TV could kill an NFL comeback.
- Tim Yotter (Fox Sports) Moss, Carter trade criticisms.
- First Take (ESPN) Holley, Smith talk Moss, T.O. (7.44 min. video)
- Wes Bunting (Nat'l Football Post) Mock Draft 3.0.
- Wes Bunting (Nat'l Football Post) Draft talk 17.0.
- Russ Lande (Sporting News) NFL Draft top 50 prospects.
- Wes Bunting (Nat'l Football Post) NFL Combine snubs: Defense.
- Mike Florio (ProFootballTalk) "Poison pill" for offer sheets removed from CBA.
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The Scott Kacsmar article is a great read
kinda puts a few things in a different light…
Part of Brady going down field a bit is that the Pats outside guys aren’t exactly size/speed match up problems that can go get the ball or play a little defense if the ball is not where it needs to be.
the article is full of stats
but i think incredibly deceiving. who is brady going to throw deep to? he doesn’t have those weapons. that’s the problem. nicks, manningham, and cruz are all 6’ or taller and have deep play ability. the pats have zero receivers on the outside with deep play ability. i take that back, ochocinco does, but the dude couldn’t learn the playbook.
also, the scoring points thing bugs me. nevermind the fact that the defense couldn’t get off the field and the pats only had the ball for 22 minutes. also nevermind the fact that their average starting position was their own 16 yard line.
by jamiesinnott on Feb 15, 2012 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
they didn't move, and i agree with you
but the deep passes were at a much, much higher succession rate. when he had moss. a receiver that is capable of making a play on the deep ball is important, and the pats don’t have any of those. by comparison, the giants have 3.
also, i would argue thatt the stats are also a major product of the run game. a lot of big passing plays are the result of play-action. in 2007-2009, play action couldn’t be as successful because the pats couldn’t run the ball. if you note the highest percentage of deep balls were the years we had antowain smith and corey dillon.
by jamiesinnott on Feb 15, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
For all the Wes bashers, I thought this was interesting. I was shocked at the time to see Welker was the target of that pass.
Since 2007, Wes Welker has 554 receptions in the regular season. But only 11 of those receptions have been caught on passes thrown 20+ yards in the air, such as this pass was. That’s only 1.99% of his receptions. One of those passes was by Matt Cassel in 2008, leaving just 10 career connections between Brady and Welker on passes over 20 yards down the field in the regular season.
In seven playoff games together, Welker doesn’t have a reception longer than 19 yards no matter where the pass was thrown to.
Why would anyone expect Welker to make a play like that 100 times when he’s never done it anywhere close to 100 times in his career? He’s the underneath slot machine. All the bread and butter plays between Welker and Brady are on short routes (under 8 yards). It’s not a surprise they would be out of sync on a pass and catch they practically never make together.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 10:43 AM EST reply actions
Actually,
that’s a great article.
It shows that the Patriots went long more often with Reche Caldwell and crew in 2006, than they did with Randy Moss and Donte Stallworth in 2007. Tom also went long least in 2010 and 2011 of ANY point in his career.
Tom Brady – Pass Length %
Season (<10 yards %) (10-20 yards %) (21+ yards %)
2001 (69.3) (18.2) (12.5)
2002 (73.0) (18.5) (8.5)
2003 (63.6) (24.4) (12.0)
2004 (53.0) (31.0) (16.0)
2005 (61.1) (27.2) (11.7)
2006 (67.6) (20.2) (12.2)
2007 (67.3) (20.8) (11.9)
2009 (68.4) (20.9) (10.7)
2010 (72.1) (20.6) (7.3)
2011 (70.9) (21.7) (7.4)
The got more TD’s going long in 2007, though, and a slighty higher completion rate:
• 2006: Brady was 23/63 (37%) for 735 yards, 7 TD, 5 INT on passes thrown 20+ yards.
• 2007: Brady was 28/69 (41%) for 1,112 yards, 15 TD, 5 INT on passes thrown 20+ yards.
• 2009: Brady was 16/60 (27%) for 701 yards, 9 TD, 6 INT on passes thrown 20+ yards.
• 2010: Brady was 14/36 (39%) for 537 yards, 6 TD, 2 INT on passes thrown 20+ yards.
• 2011: Brady was 13/45 (29%) for 474 yards, 5 TD, 0 INT on passes thrown 20+ yards.
Brady was able to get points off of the long ball more often when Moss was here.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Most notable to me is the drop in "balance" from McDaniels to O'Brien.
O’Brien really ran a limited offense where the opposing defense knew exactly what the Pats were going to do (short passes over the middle), but they almost never had the personnel to actually defend against it. McDaniels ran an offense that forced defenses to respect the deep ball, even if the bread and butter of it was still short routes.
Really, I’m just glad McD is back.
by nbradley07 on Feb 15, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, you can always work in the deep ball even if you don't have a "deep threat".
It’s just harder to do.
I mean Brady’s tossed 10 of them to Wes in 5 years and he’s not a “deep threat”. It’s just reading the coverage and reacting. You can also design plays that force the defense to make the choice, and then throw the deep ball if they leave it open.
One thing you can’t do is work in the deep ball if you never go deep. That’s poor play design.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, and why do you "let" Welker go deep? Percentages.
He and Brady are over 70% on the short stuff. Brady’s 30-40% on the long stuff. There’s a good chance they won’t connect and a chance you’ll catch Welker from behind if they do.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Every time the TV showed Brady drop back to pass it deep
It was unnerving. None of us knew who the heck he was throwing it to until the cameras panned downfield. The passes he tried to get to Welker were tough to watch too, simply because Welker has short arms and his range is much smaller when reaching out to grab a pass.
Keep the faith!
Just looking at it from a pitching standpoint.
You have a short player and his strike zone is smaller. A taller player and the zone is bigger.
Now start pitching from second base and see how you do. Try it again from center field.
Who would you rather pitch to?
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Some people are afraid of going back to the spread versus the multiple TE formations.
I’m not. At least, I like having a viable spread in the toolbox just like I like having a viable multiple TE formation in the mix.
We can work the horizontal passing game all day, and that’s a good thing. But having the deepest safety parking at the 20 isn’t a good thing. Teams that can crowd the middle are a problem for this offense.
Having the ability to stretch the field when we need to is a benefit. Having a player like Herndo that can fit into any formation is also a benefit. Having multiple offensive looks is also a good thing.
I don’t believe adding a multiple WR spread would have to detract from what we can do with multiple tight-ends. Whichever one creates the biggest mismatch for the opponent.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Having the versatility would only help
Nice to at least have the option or threat of a vertical passing game, and as you said, keep the safeties back a bit.
Keep the faith!
Yeah, or let them bite short and burn them.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Synergistically, having Gronk, 'Dez & Welker underneath
should on occasion help the deep threat in turn by pulling the safeties under. Sort of like ‘play action’ but with the short passing game, rather than the running game.
That was obviously our main means of trying to go deep to Branch & Slater this year. But they just didn’t have the ‘Moss-like’ ability to really capitalize on it.
It would definitely be a nice complement to have a big, tall and fast WR to send down field on occasion.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Having a deep threat to me would improve our offense, but
not a whole lot.
I agree, that having the ability to stretch the field is beneficial. However
Some people are afraid of going back to the spread versus the multiple TE formations.
I’m not. At least, I like having a viable spread in the toolbox just like I like having a viable multiple TE formation in the mix.
We can work the horizontal passing game all day, and that’s a good thing. But having the deepest safety parking at the 20 isn’t a good thing. Teams that can crowd the middle are a problem for this offense.
I don’t think anyone is really afraid of it. I think we all know that our offense has shown that it does not NEED a deep threat to be successful. If crowding the middle is such a problem, why haven’t the majority of teams been able to stop us? We also attack the seams and outside short throws. :P
Our offense is built to get methodically slow drives, eat up the clock, run the ball as well, and where the opponents defense down. And they have been doing that very well. Having a deep threat is fine, and would help, but its not needed.
I am missing the deep throw though….. would certainly make our offense more dangerous than it already is.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Actually, I really hope the pats get
Rueben Randle AND Marvin McNutt or Marvin Jones.
Brady would have so much fun with those guys….
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
A couple points:
If crowding the middle is such a problem, why haven’t the majority of teams been able to stop us?
…and who cares about the majority? We can get to the playoffs, it’s the elite teams we need to worry about.
It was part of the Steelers game plan, and the Giants twice. Guys on their team have said so. Two of those losses didn’t matter, one did. Do we just hope we don’t face them again?
Our offense is built to get methodically slow drives, eat up the clock…
That’s fine until there is only 56 seconds on the clock at the end of the game, and we can’t burn large chunks of yardage quickly. That’s we could have used versus the Giants twice, and Buffalo once.
Do we absolutely NEED a deep threat? No. It just makes it a lot harder to win in some circumstances. If we play perfectly, we might even be able to compensate. I mean there are one armed pitchers out there, and some of them are pretty damn good, but would they be better with an extra arm? Funny how you don’t see those guys in the majors, although my aunt dated a guy that had one arm in the minors.
All I’m arguing for is more tools in the toolbox. Not to throw away tools we already have.
In 2007, we could have used better production from our tight ends in the Super Bowl.
In 2011, we could have used better production on longer passes in the Super Bowl.
Why does it have to be one or the other? It doesn’t. I also don’t want JUST a deep threat. I just want a well rounded receiver that can ALSO be a deep threat. In fact, I think the more well rounded the guy is the better.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mixed feelings
Its not as though we NEED a deep threat – the SB was one or two plays away from a win, few of which were deep plays. Furthermore, we are capable of end-of-game drives, as shown against the Cowboys. On the other hand, though, we did have trouble against the Jets, Steelers, and Giants. The only reason we didn’t lose to the Jets this year is because their offense has taken a major regression. I think we should get a deep threat, but when you’re 13-3 and a few plays away from an SB win, I don’t think theres anything you really “need.”
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 15, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, you might even be able to say,
When your QB is Brady, I don’t think theres anything you really "need."
Still, the more playmakers you surround him with, the better it will be if he’s not perfect. You don’t ask a sculpter to carve a masterpiece using an old screwdriver and a brick. Quality tools do help.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
If thats a subtle slam related to my stop starting Brady thread
then I say having a great QB and no team generally doesn’t work, whether its with the Pats of 2009, or the Colts of the last 2/3rds decade. If not, ignore this response.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 15, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
No it's not a slam.
It’s just that Brady has already proven he can do a lot with a little. The only guys he’s ever tossed a pass to that might be in Canton, is Moss and possibly Gronk if he keeps up the pace, and those guys were never on the same team. No QB in history has done so much with so little.
The question remains, what can he do with a full complement of tools at his disposal? I’m willing to find out.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
It was part of the Steelers game plan, and the Giants twice. Guys on their team have said so. Two of those losses didn’t matter, one did. Do we just hope we don’t face them again?
Okay so the elite teams? What was Baltimore forgotten? Brady didn’t have a good day passing, but he put some excellent drives together that helped led them to scores. Who knows what would have happened if Brady didn’t just decide to throw it deep (out of nowhere) for an INT, or if Woody didn’t fumble.
And if you remember, we faced elite talent in the regular season in 2010. And we beat most of those talents. In the superbowl we had bad breaks that aided to our loss. passing had not much to do with it. Catching the Ball did though.
That’s fine until there is only 56 seconds on the clock at the end of the game, and we can’t burn large chunks of yardage quickly. That’s we could have used versus the Giants twice, and Buffalo once.
Didn’t help us in 07 vs. the Giants either.
Also there was TWO drops? Lets face it, ANY team is going to have difficulty driving the field with less than a minute to go. Having a deep threat would have helped us there of course. I never said it WOULDN’T. But we could have drove down the field WITHOUT a deep threat. If Branch caught the damn ball on the last drive, the situation would not have resulted in a 60+ yard hail mary.
Hell, I’ll go as far to say that IF Welker caught it and IF we scored a TD on that drive, or IF we won the superbowl, NO ONE here would be crying for a deep threat (not saying you are by the way). The game was important, yes, but you have 3 games to judge your cause. Which all were losses. I have two good seasons of judgment where our offense was top 3 and hard to stop without a deep threat. You can throw in the playoffs of course, but its obvious its not as much as the offensive scheme more than the execution. Which we can improve on.
Do we absolutely NEED a deep threat? No. It just makes it a lot harder to win in some circumstances. If we play perfectly, we might even be able to compensate. I mean there are one armed pitchers out there, and some of them are pretty damn good, but would they be better with an extra arm? Funny how you don’t see those guys in the majors, although my aunt dated a guy that had one arm in the minors.
Right. In SOME circumstances. If circumstances suggest under two minutes, even the 07 team can have difficult.
All I’m arguing for is more tools in the toolbox. Not to throw away tools we already have.
And I’m arguing that its fine if you want the tools. Just saying you don’t absolutely NEED them which you yourself agreed with above.
Why does it have to be one or the other? It doesn’t. I also don’t want JUST a deep threat. I just want a well rounded receiver that can ALSO be a deep threat. In fact, I think the more well rounded the guy is the better.
Agreed. But I would absolutely love if we got Jarius Wright or Joe Adams. They are not tall, but both are blazing fast and they are playmakers. May not be deep threats, but our offense will still be top 3, and will still be able to compete with most teams in the NFL.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
You still doing this?
We barely squeaked by Baltimore. We were a dropped pass and a shanked field goal away from losing that game. We got lucky. It is not proof that the system works. In fact, it’s more proof that we need help with elite teams.
Regular season is always different. Division games come close to the intensity of the playoffs. Conference games are less, and opposite conference is even less. We beat the Giants in the regular season in 2007. Didn’t mean a thing. We beat the Ravens in 2009 regular season. Playoffs? Not so much. We killed the Jets regular season 2010. Playoffs? We were one and done. Playoffs are a different animal and playoffs are were the elite teams live or die.
The deep threat didn’t help us in 2007? Right. I already pointed out that we had close to zero production from the Tight-Ends and BTW also from the RBs. Actually zero from Gaffney as well. I’m NOT lobbying for a one-dimensional attack. If Moss wasn’t hobbled (ankle injury), he might have connected on one
of the two desperation long balls to save the game. He’d have a MUCH better chance than Slater.
Now I already said multiple times that we don’t HAVE to have a deep threat. We can continue to spread the field horizontally. My point is that some teams are better at defending that when they don’t have to worry about a pass beyond 20 yards. Look it’s basic football. Misdirection.
Why have a play action pass? To get the safety’s and LB’s to bite on the run, so you have better coverage elsewhere. If they don’t have to worry about anything deep, that’s less effective. If one CB can shut down the outside, then the safety can still help in the middle – even if they jumped.
It’s easy to run when there’s not eight in the box, it’s easier to pass when coverage is spread out. I don’t think this is any sort of new revelation. Why do you?
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
It wasn't a srop pass first of all. Moore DID punch it out. And tha shank field goal would have got us into overtime. Who knows what would have happened.
The deep threat didn’t help us in 2007? Right. I already pointed out that we had close to zero production from the Tight-Ends and BTW also from the RBs.
That year was Ben Watsons best year if Im not mistaken. Also Maroney was doing amazing in the playoffs running the ball too.
My point is that some teams are better at defending that when they don’t have to worry about a pass beyond 20 yards. Look it’s basic football. Misdirection.
And my point is that its not as simple as you seem to imply it. Its been over a year since 2010, the Jets seem to have known how to stop the patriots offense since the playoffs, and we as fans have been saying crowd the middle. Taking all that into effect, you think teams have already tried to crowd the middle? Usually what happens is that Gronk or Herndo are going to be open down the seam, or when they split outward. Its not as simple as “crowd the middle” and we have seen evidence of this. If it was that simple, then we would not have been a top 3 offense still.
Oh and yes, only the playoffs matter but I like to include what happens in the regular season as well when it comes to judging a team. Saints loosing to the Seahawks in 2010 was quite unexpecting, and both the Saints and Green Bay (Both who have deep threats) lost to the Giants, and we have been closer to beating the Giants than both of those teams.
Why have a play action pass? To get the safety’s and LB’s to bite on the run, so you have better coverage elsewhere. If they don’t have to worry about anything deep, that’s less effective. If one CB can shut down the outside, then the safety can still help in the middle – even if they jumped.
Yes we have play action pass. We have been most effective passing the ball this season in the no huddle and the play action pass. Also again, its not that simple. They may not have to worry much deep, but they still have to double wes welker and Gronkowski. ANd that opens up one on one mismatches elsewhere.
It’s easy to run when there’s not eight in the box, it’s easier to pass when coverage is spread out. I don’t think this is any sort of new revelation. Why do you?
I agree. thats why I’m saying that getting a deep threat is a LUXURY and CAN help us. But we have SHOWN that this offense is fine WITHOUT a deep threat, and if you notice I have been saying that I would LIKE to have a deep threat, but if we don’t get one I will shrug my shoulder knowing that we’ll still be a top 3 offense.
The problem doesn’t stem from us not having a deep threat in the playoffs. It’s execution. Plain and simple. You can’t have WRs dropping the ball, and you can’t be just chucking the ball deep for the hell of it (which Brady did for a couple times). Execution is the issue.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
The Saints never lost to the Giants
In fact, they drilled the Giants in the regular season 49-24.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Oh right... DERP!
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
All Im saying is
is that I would love to have a deep threat. But if we don’t get one, I wouldn’t care because our offense will still be top 3, and in good shape. As long as we get our execution down better in the playoffs, we should be fine. Yes, we COULD have lost to the Ravens but the Giants COULD also have lost to us. Against the Ravens, who have a tremendous passing defense, we were able to drive down the field nicely. But alas, execution is the biggest part to overcome.
As I said though, I would love to have a deep threat. But if we don’t get one, I wouldn’t care because our offense will still be top 3, and in good shape.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
One more thing about the Super Bowl in 2007:
All of Brady’s targets in SB XLII:
The running backs:
Faulk: 1st: 1 for 8, 1 inc 2nd: 1 for 6 3rd: 3 for 22, 1 inc 4th: 1 for 12, 1 ob (6/8 75%) (42 yards)
Maroney: 1st: 1 inc 2nd: 1 for 8 3rd: 1 for 4 4th: 0 (2/3 67%) (12 yards)
The receivers:
Welker: 1st: 1 for 8 2nd: 1 for 9 3rd: 5 for 55, 1 inc 4th: 4 for 31, 1 inc (11/14 79%) (103 yards)
Stallworth: 1st: 1 for 7 2nd: 1 for 18 3rd: 1 for 18, 1 inc 4th: 1 inc (3/5 60%) (43 yards)
Moss: 1st: 0 2nd: 2 inc, 1 ob 3rd: 1 inc 4th: 4 for 44, 4 inc (4/12 33%) (44 yards)
Gaffney: 1st: 1 inc 2nd: 0 3rd: 1 inc 4th: 1 inc (0/3 0%) (0 yards)
The tight-ends:
K.Brady 1st: 0 2nd: 0 3rd: 1 for 3 4th: 0 (1/1 100%) (3 yards)
Watson 1st: 2 inc 2nd: 0 3rd: 0 4th: 0 (0/2 0%) (0 yards) (Also 15 yards in penalties)
inc is incompletions, ob means they were out of bounds
They started off the game trying to spread the ball around. Maroney was useless all game, Gaffney was even more useless. Stallworth had 1 catch each of the first three quarters (14 yds average) and a drop in the 3rd and 4th quarter. Moss only brought in a third of the passes he was targeted. We got a whopping 3 yards of production from our tight-ends who couldn’t block anything that game. Welker was barely targeted until the 3rd and 4th quarters (and was on fire). Faulk was also solid, but was little used until the third and fourth quarter.
Again we were one-sided and had ineffective tools. Our tight-ends were a weakness, and Faulk was the only back with production, but that was as a pass catcher.
This year, we turned that around, but we’ve long since lost the deep threat piece. I really don’t see how having a complete team is a bad thing. The more way we can threaten defenses the better, IMO.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree.
I know that Maroney did get a TD in the superbowl and was running pretty well.
I know how the superbowl went. We didn’t lose because there was not enough targets. There were. We just couldn’t get the pass out as much because the Giants were rushing the heck out of Brady that game. Our OL was extremely unprepared. Welker, the slot guy, got in the most receptions because he ran quicker routes. Now that I think about it, our offense now has built itself to be a quick passing offense, rather than a long passing offense. In 07, the routes typically needed to be developed, and our OL was awesome that year enough to keep Brady up. Perhaps this is just babble of course.
In the playoffs, I know that we have been running the ball well, and Watson was having a very good year that year. Its obvious that most of the passes went toward Moss and Welker though. Because they were freaking awesome. Also Watson was a great blocker for us too.
You can’t just be singling out our losses smp. There is more to a team and what they do well then just what they do when they lose a game.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
What it comes down to though
It doesn’t matter how many points you scored, how little you let the opponent score, or even your record as long as it’s good enough to make the playoffs once you’ve made it. His point, a very valid one, is that our offense has trouble against the elite defenses you’re going to come across in the playoffs, which would be aided if we had a deep threat. It’s not needed as Brady and Co. have proven time and again, but there’s no way you can argue that having someone who can stretch the field wouldn’t be helpful. You can’t point to all of the teams who couldn’t stop the Pats and say we’re fine, when the teams who can (and did) stop them are the ones the Pats are going to have to beat in the playoffs to make it and win the SB.
by indy pats fan on Feb 16, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I am not arguing that someone who can stretch the field WOULDN'T help though.
And I know the playoffs matter.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
A healthy Gronk could very well have tipped the scales
and they might have pulled it off this year against the odds, by winning without a deep threat.
Keep the faith!
yeah.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I'm only singling out the ones that matter.
Specifically the post season ones. Plus or minus two losses in the regular season may not be that big of a deal. 11-5 or 15-1 and we’d likely still be in the playoffs. The Patriots are set up fine for getting into the playoffs.
Once there, though, you face the cream of the crop.
Now in 2007 SB, Moss had a bum ankle. He still did alright, but his jumping was off and he was slower.
In 2011 SB, Gronk had a bum ankle. He still did alright, but his jumping was off and he was slower.
The problem is, there was really no where else to go to duplicate that production. Those two were elite players.
All I’m saying is make the offense more versatile, no less, and give us more options for when injury strikes – like it always does. The other option is just cross our fingers and hope no one gets hurt.
Oh, and BTW, Maroney DIDN"T rush very well in the SB – a whopping 36 yards on 14 carries (2.6 YPA – 9 long). One 7 yard run by Faulk and one 2 yard run by Evans round out our stable. 45 total yards.
This year Benny alone got 44 (still not great, but (4.4 YPA – 17 long)). Woody got 18 on 7 carries (2.6 YPA), and Welker got 21 on 2 carries (10.5 YPA). So we were 84% more productive on 19% more carries.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Okay in the superbowl he wasn;t that productive, but he did get the goal line TD which was vital.
But he productive in the playoffs in 07, getting 120 something yards in each game against San Diego and the Jaguars.
In any case, I do agree that it would make our offense more versatile. But you are missing me saying that I would LOVE to get a deep threat, but if we don’t, I wouldn’t care because our offense is top 3 still.
And we did well passing against Baltimore. We just couldn’t score in the redzone, and Brady only threw one dumb INT that he should never have thrown (and he did the same thing against the Giants). The Giants stopped the Packers well, but we did better than what the pack did overall I think.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Ok, I didn't miss that.
I don’t really care if our offense is ranked top 3 or 23. What matters is if we can score when we need to score, and if we can survive injuries that are sure to pop up.
You wouldn’t mind a deep threat. I wouldn’t mind a deep threat. There’s common ground.
We could stay with the status quo, or we could make changes to get better. I think there’s room for improvement in our WR corps. I think we ought to address it both in FA and in the draft.
What I want is a team where if you take a couple guys away, we are close to the same production. We’ve had enough games this year that show that isn’t the case. I’m not looking at status quo. I want the red pill.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
We could stay with the status quo, or we could make changes to get better. I think there’s room for improvement in our WR corps. I think we ought to address it both in FA and in the draft.
I agree.
What I want is a team where if you take a couple guys away, we are close to the same production. We’ve had enough games this year that show that isn’t the case. I’m not looking at status quo. I want the red pill.
lols the red pill. Got something against the Blue Pill Slot? :P
And I understand. We need more depth and versatility at WR. I think we would be fine without one, but of course I agree, it doesn’t hurt to get one that can potentially improve our passing offense.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
Well, i disagree with you
..and I think the Kacsmar article is a big BS, filled with lot’s of data though.
So Brady’s weakness is good enough only for this? 10 full seasons as stater he played, 6 AFC Championship, 5 SB visit, 3 SB wins.
And what the hack says Kacsmar, if Branch catches the easy ball at 50 seconds left and goes to the 30-35 yard, then the Pats diniking and dunking the ball into the end zone in the 45+ sec remained? Or if Hernandez makes the catch and run 45 secs left, and a the Pats still with plenty of times does the same? Or if Welker makes that not so impossible catch? Or if the defense recovers one of the forced fumbles, or makes the stop at the end?
1 play away from the SB with this leaky team, and it’s Brady’ weakness? It’s a BS article. A big, impressive, almost attractive BS, but still a BS.;)
If you want to look over more than just not WR’s dropping or D not making a key play, here is my take:
Brady’s best offensive weapon played with a torn ankle, and was basically invisible, so in 2 weeks the Patriots had 2 make a totally new strategy, leaving the 2TE formation behind, and using a lot more 3WR formations. If anything, that was the problem, that stat explains more than anything regarding David Patten or Troy Brown. Out of the last 3 play off losses Brady before the game his most important target. Before the Ravens game in 2009 Welker, and before the SB Gronk.
BTW, Brady made at least 3 potential “winning” throws in the last 4 minutes. Dropped by Welker, Branch and Hernandez. The ones for Branch and Hernandez were easy and with plenty of room to run.
by frogfromthemud on Feb 16, 2012 6:05 AM EST up reply actions
Actually,
The ones for Branch and Hernandez were easy and with plenty of room to run.
If Brady had thrown Welker’s to the inside shoulder, he could have stayed upright and had plenty of room to run as well. I’m pretty sure that everyone who calls that catch easy has never tried to make that catch, BTW. Yeah, I know you aren’t professional receivers and Welker is, but it’s not a catch that Welker is accustomed to making and he makes a lot of catches – mostly around his ankles and diving for the ground.
The ball was high and about a yard ahead of him, yet he jumped, spun and still came close to catching it.
If changing to a 3WR set was a problem, and it was a problem, it was a problem because they relied too heavily on the 2TE set to begin with. Why? Because we don’t have 3 WR that can get open. All I’m suggesting is that we get some. Injuries happen. The more ways we can compensate the better.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
We were heavy with two TEs
because it allowed us with versatility to run the ball, as well as have them both as a passing threat. We can spread them out with those TEs too, sometimes we have Gronk or Herndo on the outside.
I think if we wanted to go to a 3 WR set with Ocho, Branch, and Welker (I believe Ocho and Brady would have gained a connection faster if Ocho started and got reps and Brady looked to him), with Herndo or Gronk as the TE, we would have. But we maximize our offensive potential by having those two freakishly awesome TEs imho.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I'm saying we need someone who's better than Branch or Ocho.
Keeping Herndo is fine. He becomes a receiver as often as not. I mean if he isn’t lined up as a TE, then he is not, technically a TE.
We can still run 2 TE sets (both lined up as TEs), we can run 1 TE set (Gronk) with Herndo wide, and we can split them both wide in a spread. They’re great athletes. Keep them on the field.
Just get a wide receiver that can get open – and run deep on occasion, and I’m all good.
Branch isn’t that good anymore, and Ocho’s production was non-existant – he’s not worth what he’s due to make.
There are plenty of better FA WR available. Pick one.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep. :)
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
BTW, I like some of the guys you've targeted.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Draft is stacked with WRs.
Thought I make it known that we don’t have to fumble for one in the 1st or 2nd round. Value is key, and BB respects that. I’d love to get Rueben Randle with our 31st pick, but I wouldn’t mind getting Criner in the late 2nd, Marvin Jones in the 4th, Marvin McKnutt (lols), or even Joe Adams. Tommy Streeter looks very interesting too.
I find it hard to believe that BB won’t target 2 WRs this year.
I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP
I think it's likely
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
The Branch throw was a bad one by Brady. It was behind Branch who was cutting across the field
The Hernandez throw was a drop, but it was going to gain 9 or 10 yards. He had a guy right on him. That was basically not going to change anything in the game. The Pats sill would have had to rely on a hail mary at the end.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
There were 2 drops by Branch
The 3rd down play right after Welker’s drop that he gets hounded for, Branch dropped a pass that should have been extremely easy for an NFL wide receiver to catch. Then the other one was after we got the ball back, Brady thread the needle of a LB’s hands that would’ve been somewhat difficult for Branch to catch.
by indy pats fan on Feb 16, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
That one seemed also behind him
which is why the Giants defender was able to break it up.
I also think Phillips might have got a slight touch on the ball to Branch on the last drive, because it seemed to be a clean throw coming out of BRady’s hands and it was wobbling like crazy by the time it got to Deion.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
He touched it, yeah.
There was still time and distance to find it and catch it. He was still standing on two feet – not diving and spinning.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 16, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
True, the touch didn't change the trajectory of the ball
but catching a tight spiral is easier. Overall, it was just a lack of perfect execution. Brady’s at fault, Branch is at fault, and Phillips made just enough of a play.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
I tend to agree with frogfromthemud that the article stretches things
with the implication that the problem is somehow a shortcoming of Brady’s.
On the other hand, I agree with SMP that if we CAN add a deep threat component to the attack WITHOUT losing effectiveness in our horizontal, underneath game, then that makes perfect sense to do.
These two superbowls were both down to any 1 of many plays flipping one way or the other. Luck. Football is unfortunately, vulnerable to it. So long as two teams are ‘within a score’ of each other, then one play can decide it.
The only way to remove the luck factor is to be more than one flipped play better than your opponent.
So any advantage we can add, anything to make us that much better so as to diminish the luck factor – that’s what we need to do.
The team is well structured to make this sort of improvement. All of our main weapons in the current arsenal are either under control or within our means to keep under control (Welker). The O-line is young, healthy and mostly set for the next couple of years with the exception of maybe Center.
So looking around for the best possible deep threat option to add to the mix is a risk-free proposition. We have the draft and we have several interesting FA options to sort through within which to find this extra weapon.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
by mmmmm on Feb 16, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I haven't seen as many Patriots games as some of you
but I can’t remember seeing Welker ever have to jump like that for a ball. Add that to the fact that it was far downfield and it really is a surprise he came that close to catching it.
Personally, about the whole play, I place more blame on Brady. Yes, the safety was closing, but I’ve seen Brady thread that type of needle before. He really aired that ball out a little too much.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
He had one just like it vs the Eagles and couldn't pull it in.
Jump, 270° rotation over his head.
He’s better at diving at the ground for balls.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
I know, right?
…and he heard footsteps on all those middle routes Wes takes.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe, but it wasn't, IMO, a hard pass to catch.
perhaps not easy, but when you compare it to helmet-ball and Manningham’s catch, it was much easier.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 15, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
I don't get teh Manningham thing
To me, the fact he got two feet inbounds was a lot more amazing than the fact he caught the pass. The throw was just perfect.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
The point is they were given hard tasks at key moments and completed them
Welker was given a hard(perhaps not even? Thats an opinion) task at a key moment, and didn’t complete it.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 15, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
True.
That said, I don’t think Manningham’s catch was all that much harder than Welkers. It certainly wasn’t anything like Tyree’s. The throw by Manning was more impressive than the catch by Manningham, imo.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
Either way,
it was incandescent. It was a brilliant, pinpoint play — maybe the only play all game from either team that approached perfection.
"Every time I call it a game, you call it a business. Every time I call it a business, you call it a game."
"The longer they play, the more they lose. In the end, we get it all."
by JohnHannahRules on Feb 15, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Pats 1st TD drive was pretty perfect
They did get away with a bit of a hold on the TD pass by I think it was Waters, but complaining about holding non-calls in the playoffs is basically a fools exercise at this point.
That 1st Pats drive was a clinic. I have to say, when the Pats offense is clicking (which seems to be highly correlated with the o-line giving Brady impeccable protection) it is one of the most amazing sights in football. It is close to seeing that Saints offense at 100%. This isn’t about Brady vs. Manning or anything, but when I see the Colts offense (Manning era) and Packers offense play exceptional, I always think “Man, is Manning or Rodgers on fire”, compared to when teh Saints or Patriots are on a roll, I think “Man, is that a beautifully designed offense.” This isn’t a knock on Brady or Brees (who, to me, are #2-#3 in the NFL right now – Rodgers is #1), but more a compliment of Sean Payton and BB/BOB as schemers of offense.
EVH+DLR=BFFs........ God I Hope So!!
The helmet ball was a straight up jump. No rotation needed.
The hard part was holding it against his helmet with Harrison trying to pull it off. The catch was as easy as any one-handed catch.
Manningham’s was an easy catch but difficult to stay in bounds. If Chung had extended his arms, he wouldn’t have.
Tom threw a line drive over the outside shoulder that required a short guy to jump/dive, rotate 270°, locate the ball and pull it in. The fact that he got his hands on it was due to his skill, not Tom’s. That should have been an inside shoulder throw.
The more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Some people can learn from the mistakes of others, while some people need to pee on the electric fence themselves.
by SlotMachinePlayer on Feb 15, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Tom Condon (Brandon Loyd's agent) is an idiot
Referencing this article.
In 2009, Condon told the Boston Herald that his firm “pretends there are only 31 franchises in the NFL now,” and he claimed that the Patriots “pretend we (CAA) don’t exist.”
If his client wanted to play for the Patriots – indeed if it was in his client’s best interests to play for the Patriots – isn’t he guilty of malpractice if he purposely fails to work towards that?
Basically, Condon has ‘shrunk the market’ for his clients by ruling out one of the teams.
If I’m a pro athlete, I would fire my agent for making statements like that.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Thats why it sucks, though
Lloyd just got this agent. If he wanted to come to the Pats, why would he hire this hater?
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 15, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
He may not have realized what he was signing on with ...
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
I said that yesterday
The guy’s mad because we made him humiliate himself a bunch of years ago.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 15, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
I feel sorry for Ellis
hope he comes back. He and Ocho both deserve rings.
Btw, whats the situation with Waters? Is he likely to come back?
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Feb 15, 2012 2:50 PM EST reply actions

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